Drove a Smart ForTwo yesterday

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scoot @ Jun 21 2007, 11:39 AM) [snapback]465795[/snapback]</div>

Tranmission: The VW DSG is the same way. It is a computer controlled manual and is a bit jerky and slow in automatic mode. If you use it in Manual mode and drive like you normally would with a manual than it is very smooth. That means you need to let up on the throttle a bit when upshifting and match rpm's when downshifting. If you just bang on the shifter it is not very smooth but that is the driver's fault not the cars. I was very impressed and found the DSG to be very handy in city traffic.

Mileage: Is the 40mpg a city, highway, or a combined number? I've heard it described both ways. If it is a combined number that is very good. A 2007 civic is only 26/29/34 mpg on the new EPA method. the Civic Hybrid is only 40/42/45 mpg and costs $10K more than the Smart. The Smart is never going to have great highway mpg because of the shape. It is just to tall and short to be at all aerodynamic. It should have good city mileage though because it is light and aerodynamics are not as much of a factor.

How it is regulated could play a big role in the success of the Smart. If it is allowed to park nose in like a motorcycle instead of parallel parking it could be very successful in large cities were parking is tight. That is the market that the smart is designed for, it is not a car for suburbia.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 22 2007, 12:46 AM) [snapback]466222[/snapback]</div>

Yes it does but Smart only sells the turbo diesel in Canada not the gasoline versions. The diesel is rated at 51/56/63 mpg but also takes 19.8 seconds to go from 0 to 62 mph and has a top speed of 80 mph. This engine was deemed unsuitable for American tastes. We only get the most powerful gasoline engine and as such get the worst mileage.

I'm still curious if the the 40 mpg figure I keep hearing is combined or highway mileage. Anybody know? I plan to check out the Smart when the tour comes to Birmingham in September but I would be nice to know a bit earlier. If I am going to make a switch, I need to sell the TDI in the summer when gas prices are high and diesel is low.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 17 2007, 06:13 PM) [snapback]463590[/snapback]</div>

That doesn't make any sense. As Priusenvy said you need crushable structure to absorb crash impact and provide safety for the occupants. There is absolutely no way you would crash a smart at 70 MPH and fare as well as crashing something like a Yaris in the same way. Its just physically not possible, thats why Smart cars haven't been legal here for so long.

You WANT the car to crush and collapse, if the car isn't crushing and collapsing those forces are being absorbed by the occupants! Ever wonder why race cars fly apart into a million peices? Thats why.

I just watched the you tube video? HAHAHA If you never want your kids to walk again buy em a Smart. My Kids will be in real cars.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 25 2007, 11:25 AM) [snapback]467614[/snapback]</div>

Yes you want crush zones but you don't want the area directly around the occupants to crush. The Smart has the engine in the back so the entire front area is a crush zone. The smart is designed so these external areas crush but the main cell does not. The smart also has seat belts that release tension to allow you to decelerate more slowly and a steering wheel that retracts toward the dash in an accident. If you are hit in the rear the engine cradle is designed to separate and slide underneath the passenger compartment.

The Yaris has the engine in front so though the area is larger the crushable area may not be.

After looking at the IIHS pictures of the Yaris compared to the Mercedes Video of the E-Class vs Smart I don't see that the Yaris is any better than the Smart. Remember the Top Gear Smart crash is at 70 mph compared to only 35 mph for the Yaris on the IIHS website. Also both the Top Gear and Mercedes video are of the first generation Smart, not the current one. To get apples to apples we will have to what for the NHTSA or IIHS to crash a new Smart.

All in all I would say the Smart is much safer than my motorcycle and about the same price and mileage. Not to mention it carries the same amount of people and more stuff. It doesn't fall over either! :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jun 21 2007, 07:00 PM) [snapback]465806[/snapback]</div>

DSG is similar, but in a very different league. It's actually two 3-speed transmissions, each with a clutch. So when you're in first gear on tranny 1, tranny 2 has already selected 2nd gear. When it's time to shift, all that happens is clutch 1 disconnects while clutch 2 connects. That's very smooth, power is never lost because the disconnecting and connecting overlap.

The Smart however is a "normal" manual gearbox with servos to automate it. So it has to disconnect, shift, and then connect again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lowlander @ Jun 25 2007, 03:07 PM) [snapback]467751[/snapback]</div>

I understand the DSG has two clutches. What I was trying to say is the feeling is the same. When you are manually shifting the shifts are very smooth if you match RPMs while downshifting and lift the throttle upshifting. It is jerky if you just move the lever and let the computer try to do everything. It's not really bad but not as good as someone that is good with a manual. So the driver still makes a difference.

I found the DSG to shift slowly when in manual mode.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jun 25 2007, 03:59 PM) [snapback]467743[/snapback]</div>

I watched the video too. All modern cars have these features.

 

A super reliable scion or yaris would be much better for your daughter,

Cost is only one point, the others are service, reliability, and safety.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 25 2007, 05:36 PM) [snapback]467851[/snapback]</div>

All modern cars have crush zones but the rest are features that are unique to the Smart or very rare:

The first, have the engine in the rear to allow the entire front area to be a crush zone is very rare. The only other car that is rear engined that I know of is the Porsche 911. In my opinion, rear engined cars are inherently safer in a collision than a front engined car and have superior driving dynamics.

All modern cars have a collapsible steering column but this is in the linkage between the steering rack and the steering wheel. As I understand it the Smart has an active system that moves the steering wheel and column away from the driver when the airbag deploys.

All modern cars have seatbelt pretensioners but again if understand it correctly the the Smart pretensions to hold the driver in place and then moments after the impact slightly relaxes the seatbelt to slow the deceleration of the person.

The detaching subframe that allows the engine to slide under the passenger compartment was pioneered by Mercedes with their A Class and is unique to the M-B small cars.

The Smart is a unique design with a lot of features to make is not only a great small city car but also a very safe car. Again, the proof will be when the current generation U.S. spec Smart is crash tested.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 15 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]462705[/snapback]</div>

I had the same experience when I checked-out a ForTwo with a friend of mine (she thought it was cute). I liked the exterior, and it had some interesting design elements, but even on a top of the line model, the interior felt extremely cheap compared to my Prius.

IMHO, it should been about $15k for a top of the line model, and $10k for the base model...

Dave

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveG @ Jun 26 2007, 01:10 AM) [snapback]468136[/snapback]</div>

To compare the interior of a $12K car to a $22K car is crazy. Besides, the Prius has a pretty crappy interior for a $22K to $30K car.

I'm not quite sure what people are expecting here. In the the U.S. the Smart will start out at $12K w/o A/C, $14K with A/C, power windows, heated mirrors, and alloy wheels. It is an basic small car.

In the U.S. we have the following options for something less expensive:
Hyundai Accent Hatch: $10,354
Kia Rio Sedan: $10,576
Chevy Aveo Hatch: $11,525
Toyota Yaris Hatch: $11,011

With any of these by the time you add ABS, Power Windows, Power Doors, and Side Airbags you are up to $13K to $15K. Some of these you can't even get side airbags, a necessity for me in a small car. I don't believe you can get stability control or traction control in any of them.

I looked at the Yaris before we got our Prius. The Yaris was fine but by the time it was optioned to a basic spec: ABS, Cruise, PW, PD, Side Airbags, it was $15K. I figured I might as well get a Honda Fit for $16K and get 4 doors and more room. Then I decided I might as well get a used Prius and get 10 more mpg and even more room for only $20K.

This is when the car went from a replacement for my motorcycle during the winter to the replacement for our VW TDI. Now we will probably look to sell the TDI a bit sooner, say about 150K to 200K instead of 300K miles. If the Smart would have been available or at least had pricing available I may have just waited for it and keep the VW as our primary car. Right now we have two large family cars and we really only need one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 26 2007, 10:33 PM) [snapback]468624[/snapback]</div>

I hadn't thought of the Scions because I find them to be incredible ugly but your right, in the U.S. a xB scion is $15.5 and comes with all my required features. But it only gets a EPA 26/28/30 mpg. That matches what some people I know that have them have been averaging. Of course they've traded in trucks and think that 30 mpg is great.

I have sat in a 1st Gen fortwo and closed the door. I still don't see the issue. I guess I just may be different. I spent 5 years commuting year-around on a BMW motorcycle. The safety of the Smart car really doesn't trouble me. I would be trading a helmet, gloves and armored suit for a steel safety cell, seat belts, 4 airbags, ABS, traction control. I paid $11K for the motorcycle and $2K for good riding gear 5 years ago, so again, $12K for a car in 2008 seems reasonable.

Is it worth $21K Canadian? No, probably not. There are lots of better cars for $20K USD, the Mini comes to mind. I see that Smart is charging a lot more in Canada than what they have announced for the U.S. In the U.S. the announced prices are:

Pure: $12K USD / ($12,850 CAD)
Passion: $14K USD / ($15,000 CAD)
Cabrio: $17K USD / ($18,200 CAD)

I see the Smart starts at $15,600 USD or $16,700 CAD in Canada. Do all of your vehicles cost more?

I do think the Smart is worth the $12K or $14K that the coupe will sell for in the U.S. It makes a perfect commuting car for two car families. If I can get the Pure with A/C for about $13K it may be a replacement for my TDI. I may even be able to sell the TDI for enough to cover the Smart. As I said, I don't need a 4 seat car to take me back and forth to work. We already have the Prius for family car duty. I don't see anything else out there that has the mileage per dollar of the Smart.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriusMatt @ Jun 15 2007, 05:44 PM) [snapback]462723[/snapback]</div>

A friend on mine saw them on a lot in SoCal here and they were around $20K, FRIGHTENING !!! Probably since they are the only dealer in SoCal but still, That's a screw that you can't even enjoy, yikes!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MJGreen @ Jun 27 2007, 12:51 AM) [snapback]468667[/snapback]</div>

Those are not US spec cars. US spec cars will not be available until 1st quarter of 2008. What you see on lots now are 1st generation Canadian or EU spec cars that have been imported and then converted to meet US requirement. ZAP Motors started doing this a couple years ago and I believe was asking about $25K for them. I suspect they will lose their shirt now that Smart is cutting out the middle man.

I've also seen some on ebay with Buy-It-Now prices of $25. Really people, can't you just wait another 6-9 months?

I do wonder if dealers will try to jack up the price on Smarts if the demand is high. I would be pissed if I put down my deposit for a Smart and then the dealer tried to add a couple grand profit just because people will pay it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 27 2007, 12:24 PM) [snapback]468884[/snapback]</div>

The Smart USA site says "less than $12,000" I take that to mean $11,999. :lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jun 27 2007, 12:24 PM) [snapback]468884[/snapback]</div>

Now I have to admit I'm not that familiar with Canadian purchases even though I lived next door in Michigan for 22 years but do Canadian prices include taxes and VAT like in Europe? If so that could be a big part of the difference in price. The US we quote all prices before taxes and fees and then add them on. So on a base $23K Prius you would pay another $1500 to $4000 in taxes and fees depending on the state you live in.