Prius Cracks May Top-10 Sales Chart

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jun 29 2007, 12:54 AM) [snapback]469853[/snapback]</div>

I would attribute any current Prius shortage to the plant shutting down for the model year changeover.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tballx @ Jun 29 2007, 04:51 PM) [snapback]470316[/snapback]</div>

Which there is. It's the first "sticky" topic in this very forum (Prius and Hybrid News). It's a rather good read. You'll enjoy it.

 

The average reader of leftlanenews.com is a performance car fan and not a fan of efficiency. Too bad they give performance fans a bad name! Half of the posts are from people who cannot reason and others that seem just scared of the change the Prius represents.

They will like the Toyota Volta if its made though.

 

Prius is good value for money, but only in America.
Here in Europe we subsidy Toyota's US sales.

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE of priuses in Europe, plenty of supply, no buyers.
I have a trouble to sell my prius - 2004 model -all options- at half of the purchase price, 53k km on the clock, pristine condition, clean inside out, properly serviced.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 30 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]470668[/snapback]</div>

Interesting - could you elaborate? How much in American dollars does the Prius cost in Europe? What cars are a good value inEurope and how mych do they cost and what is the mpg?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ Jun 30 2007, 09:19 PM) [snapback]470682[/snapback]</div>

I bought mine in 2004 at CHF45000 (US$36k), Premium Pack II (satnav, JBL audio, bluetooth, smart entry, fog lights, voice command and rear parking control).

At the same price, similar combined cycle mpg (53), 14% higher CO2 emissions, twice more power and much more fun to drive I bought recently BMW118d. It is smaller car (6.8 in shorter), but not much.

Modern diesels are super high tech - all-aluminium, 2000 bar pressure, very sophisticated injection system and long life. More than 60% of new cars sold in Europe are diesels.

In US you are aware of Bluetec because of marketing, but MB is not a leader in this area. Fiat, Peugeot and BMW are.

Modern diesels

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 30 2007, 05:55 PM) [snapback]470735[/snapback]</div>

I see. Has the 2007 Prius gone down in price for you?

I paid $23,000 for a 2007 package 3. I don't know if your BMW is available here. I also don't know what it would cost here.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 30 2007, 02:55 PM) [snapback]470735[/snapback]</div>

The 118d is not "twice more power". First, it's not available in the 2nd US, 2nd it's 143 hp vs. 110 hp of the Prius. That's not double.

What's the amount of particulate matter and nitrous oxides emitted by it? Like most diesels, I suspect it's *FAR* higher than what a Prius emits.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusmaybe @ Jul 1 2007, 12:05 AM) [snapback]470738[/snapback]</div>

2007 Prius price is about 5% higher than it was in 2004 here.

Difficult to compare as Toyota intentionally package it differently for different markets.
However, it looks like we pay 25% to 30% more for the same car than in US. This is despite the fact that import duty is one of the lowest in Europe (abt. 4% - no auto industry in Switzerland - do not need to protect local producers).
And 25-30% is a lot.

What's worst - it doesn't hold value :angry: - no buyers.

I admit again - I regret that bought Prius 3 years ago.

 

Wow those comments in that articel are insane!!!

I guess if you really "soley" buy the Prius to save money on gas you are making a bad decision. but if you factor in the features + reducing emissions and not to mention the best MPG for its price. you win, but those Dubbya loving freaks don't get that do they. they must be using a sliding scale for comparision.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hampdenwireless @ Jun 30 2007, 02:01 AM) [snapback]470510[/snapback]</div>

The fact is, the Prius is a high performance car! Speed and power on the road today are mostly wasted in traffic; following the slowest vehicle. Fuel economy is the performance factor that I am concerned with, because until there is a transporter developed that can beam me through the vehicle in front of me, I will have to follow just like all of the other people on the road. Reading down through their posts really made me laugh. Thanks!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tballx @ Jun 29 2007, 06:51 PM) [snapback]470316[/snapback]</div>

Here's one; there may be others out there:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/...196.A12220.html

Harry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jul 1 2007, 08:03 AM) [snapback]470967[/snapback]</div>

In the US, the Prius retains its value better than any car sold.

Harry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ozyran @ Jun 30 2007, 09:32 PM) [snapback]470835[/snapback]</div>

It helps that they WANT to believe what CNW is telling them.

I suspect what is happening is that they, too, are seeing more and more hybrids. And they may talk to an owner or two and find out some of the things that are said in the CNW article are downright lies. Once you find one lie, you suspect the rest. CNW can say anything they want. When there are more and more Prii on the road, as the price of gas goes up, as people get tired of paying more for poor mileage they start to look at alternatives. They find the Prius is what CNW made it out to be. Another person buys it. And that purchase erodes the effect of the article even more. Time and performance will take care of all articles like this. Just like not many people are using the "You have to replace the battery after a few years and it will cost $10,000." Cars have been on the road for years and their batteries are NOT failing. If they had you'd read about it all over. You're not reading about it because it didn't happen. No Prii have electrocuted rescue workers at the scene of accidents. If they had you'd have read about it all over. Etc. Etc.

There are some sheeple that will swallow what CNW feeds them and turn a blind eye to any contradiction no matter what. Time will convince the rest.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jun 30 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]470745[/snapback]</div>

Your first comment is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the BMW 118d is available in the US or not. HiLaker lives in Switzerland. The US is not the center of the universe.

HiLaker is pointing out something that is not obvious to Americans. Europeans can't quite understand why we get so excited about the Prius because they have had many cars that get very similar mileage to the Prius for years. They have vehicles that get better mileage than the Prius.

Particulate emissions are no longer a factor for diesels. Particulate traps and filters reduce particulate levels to the same levels as gas engines. Yes, NOx is higher. Not everyone buys a vehicle based on emissions, but as for as emissions go, in Europe the focus is squarely on CO2 due to their Kyoto commitment.

HiLaker has found a vehicle that he likes better than the Prius. It gets similar mileage and in his opinion it handles and drives better. Handling is an issue in Europe because they have opportunities to legally run vehicles as sustained high speeds. It is a small wagon so it has lots of cargo room too. HE LIKES THE 118d BETTER! ITS HIS CAR!

 

I am amazed at how much they try to talk bad about the Prius. It is like they are trying to justify gas hogging vehicles. Like the guy and his spreadsheet. I think he was calculating the cost of the entire car and not the difference to a comparable vehicle. But hey that is okay, if that is how they prefer to spend their money then more power to them. I am happy spending $30 for 700 miles versus my old vehicle at $147.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 1 2007, 07:17 PM) [snapback]471256[/snapback]</div>

It does matter to some degree. A car that is unavailable here is meaningless for us Americans. It's simply not available as a choice.

As for "Particulate emissions are no longer a factor for diesels. Particulate traps and filters reduce particulate levels to the same levels as gas engines.". Go take a look at this thread http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=31501. A car that meets either Tier 2 Bin 8 or 5 is FAR dirtier than many gasoline engine cars out there. See http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf for the definitions.

HiLaker is just an anti-Prius troll (who finally stepped forward "confirming" he owns one) as evidenced by his posts at http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=3...mp;#entry458296. Most of his posts are just nonsense and FUD w/gems about the Prius like "Technologically it is dead end, because it srew up car's architecture, adding unnecessary weight and makes car underpowered once battery is discharged. Too much reliance on electronics, too little mechanical (drivetrain) or engine innovation." and making claims the BMW, GM and DaimlerChrysler have "superior technology" which we all know we can buy right NOW. Virtually all of his claims were refuted by various folks on that thread.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jul 1 2007, 10:24 PM) [snapback]471291[/snapback]</div>

The fact that many fine automobile are not available for sale in the US is only relevant to Americans. I stand by my previous statement because the world does not revolve around America.

I will also stand by my statement on particulates. I am very familiar with emission standards. I am aware that current diesels such has my VW TDI have both high particulate and NOx emissions. However, for several years, diesels in Europe have used particulate filters that eliminate the particulate issue. For 2008 diesels in the US will have particulate filters as well as exhaust after-treatments to reduce NOx to T2B5 standards. My point is that the particulates are no longer the problem. The only emission that prevents diesels from moving to a level lower than T2B5 is NOx.

About the thread on the MB Bluetec. Urea-injection works, it is not new technology, it has been used on heavy duty trucks in Europe for years. CARB is not arguing whether the technology works, but has been slow to approve the technology because it relies on the operator of the vehicle to refill the tank of Urea. If the tank is not refilled, the car will run just fine but the NOx emissions go way up. M-B wants to make the Urea fill part of the normal 10K mile service. CARB wants some kind of warning / interlock so if the Urea tank runs dry the car won't run.

I also know HiLaker has a tendency to provoke the faithful. However, as someone that has traveled extensively in Europe and had the pleasure of sampling many fine vehicles not available in the US, I can see his point on this one. I've been able to sample diesels from VW, Skoda, M-B, and BMW. All of these cars handled far better than the Prius and returned very good fuel economy even though I was driving them in excess of 120 mph on the autobahn. If I lived in Europe, I would find it very unlikely that I would choose a Prius over one of the many diesel vehicles available. With the incentives from European governments for diesels and the lower price of diesel fuel, it is hard to make a case for the Prius in Europe.

 

Strange but when I look at the German data for the Prius and 5 door 1 series TD BMW I get the following.
Source toyota.de and bmw.de

Combined consumption
Prius 4.3l/100km or 54.6 MPG (US)
BMW 4.7l/100km or 50 MPG (US) for the stick


CO2
Prius 102g/100km
BMW 123g/100km for the stick


This ignores the NOx emission problem of diesels, unfortunately no number available on that.

So comparing a stck shift to auto the BMW ends up with 10% worse economy in the combined cycle and 20% more CO2 emissions. Also keep in mind that though the BMW is a bit smaller in exterior space it is quite a bit smaller on interior space. Number looking quite a bt different form the ones I saw quoted earlier. How would it look if the BMW was an auto as well?

Think we can't go look up numbers?? Please try again later.

Also saying the 1 series BMW offers the same size as the Prius is nuts. The Prius is almost a midsize vs the 1 series being sub compact. Or let me put it differently the Prius puts the 3 series to shame with interior space. Do a simple comparison on edmunds or even better sit in both ( I did). I can't comfortably sit behind myself in a 3 series, but does fine in a Prius.

 

I like the comment about how bad the resale value will be once the fad is over. Our '01 with 75K blue-books at $15200 retail, $12200 private-party... I guess the fad's not over yet.