Less taxes for hybrids in Spain.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vince @ Jun 29 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]469895[/snapback]</div>

BMW 118d is eligible too - 119g/km, lower real life consumption (4.5l/100km), twice more power, lot more fun to drive.

Don't tell me it's a small car - it's only 17cm shorter than prius (4227mm vs 4400mm), same curb weight.

The best news - it costs about the same here in Switzerland than overpriced prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 30 2007, 03:17 PM) [snapback]470718[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, but does it have the same cargo capacity? And it beats the Prius to 100km by a little more than 1 second so who cares? It does look like a nice car (though I've seen several comments that it's a pig in lipstick) and it gets solid economy. It's emissions (excluding CO2) are WAY higher than a Prius'.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 30 2007, 02:17 PM) [snapback]470718[/snapback]</div>

Sigh... as I replied in another post, how is it "twice more power"? The Prius is 110 hp. For the 118d to have twice the power, it'd need be a 220 hp car, which it's not. 143 hp is FAR short of double.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Jul 1 2007, 12:18 AM) [snapback]470748[/snapback]</div>

Prius has 110hp with fully charged battery. Three minutes uphill or 10 minutes in heavy traffic and it has half of BMW118d power which is always under your foot, mathematician.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 1 2007, 12:40 AM) [snapback]470762[/snapback]</div>

BMW118d - 0 to 60 8.9sec
Prius 11.3 sec

What is your definition of "longer"?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 1 2007, 12:16 AM) [snapback]470746[/snapback]</div>

More precisely, "little more than 1 second" is 2.4 sec.

Prius is more piggish in my view.

Don't be upset, guys - it's over your horizon.

I regret that I bought prius before I discovered this site.
I would probably awoided mistake of being in your honorable company for three years.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 30 2007, 04:17 PM) [snapback]470771[/snapback]</div>

I have driven up the Conejo Grade, the Tejon Pass and the Grapevine in my Prius. Some of those climbs lasted considerably longer than three minutes and the battery was nowhere near being depleted.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 30 2007, 05:17 PM) [snapback]470771[/snapback]</div>

Whoaa there, slick. Where did you get 11.3 seconds?

It's 9.8 seconds according to Motor Trend. Last time I checked that was 1.1 seconds, not 2.4.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 1 2007, 11:24 PM) [snapback]471317[/snapback]</div>

You guys can argue all you want but I just can't see the Prius being good at what I have experienced highway driving to be in Germany.

Highway driving consisted of:
Sprint up to 200 to 250 kph
Slow down to 100 kph for a town for 2-5 km
Sprint back up to 200 to 250 kph for 15 to 25 km
Slow down to 100 kph for a town ......

Of all the cars I have driven in Germany, the one with the worst mileage was a E-Class wagon. Even driving such a large car I got 28 mpg on the tank. A Passat or C-class would get about 30 to 35 mpg but only topped out at 220 to 230 kph and I rarely would go over 200.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 1 2007, 10:41 PM) [snapback]471335[/snapback]</div>

Well, considering the fact that it can't break 110 mph, yeah. You're not going to be doing 250 kph in a Prius. The car is clearly being marketed in Europe as an after thought. The Europeans favor diesels, which is fine. But cars are so bloody expensive over there it's ridiculous. £24K for a 118d is over $48K! I can by 2 Prii for that! Of course, it's sounds like the Prius is more expensive in Europe too.

Based on what's available here in the States, the Prius is a good choice. It's a reasonably priced car that's practical and efficient. It is also an early design in a different approach to personal transportation. The Diesel is not. They've been around for ages and have been tweaked and improved incrementally over a century. The diesel (or more generally, the ICE) is not a long term solution to our transportation problems. It can be a short/mid-term bridge, but nothing more. Part of the allure of the Prius is that it's a step in a different, and hopefully better direction.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 2 2007, 06:56 AM) [snapback]471338[/snapback]</div>

I am an engineer, and I think that you simply don't understand what are you talking about.

 

So sorry. :lol: It sounds like you're a rather dull engineer then.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Jul 2 2007, 01:40 PM) [snapback]471696[/snapback]</div>

I haven't been to Europe in a long while now. I don't remember the roads standing out, but then again I was too young to drive! So what makes the roads so good that cars cost twice as much? That doesn't even include the operating costs, which are way higher too. Mind you, I'm in favor of gas taxes but $48K for a compact hatchback is ridiculous. I could care less if they're roads are twice as good. The roads here in CO are fine. Certainly not worth an extra $20K!!! Seriously though, are you saying that the extra costs are added for road maintenance? :blink:

 

Well, I have never been to Spain,
But I kinda like the Music .....




Pic of BMW we speak of??

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 2 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]471698[/snapback]</div>

The roads don't make the cars cost more, government tax structures do. European government favor public transportation over travel by private car. As such they levy heavy taxes on the purchase of cars and on the purchase of fuel for cars. If you choose to travel by automobile in in Europe you will pay dearly.

The BMW 1 Series:



The 1 Series is coming to US in late 2008 or early 2009 but we don't get the fuel efficient diesel, or even the 4 cylinders but instead only the I-6 gasoline engine from the 3-series. We also don't get the useful wagon but instead of coupe version developed for the US along with a convertible.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 1 2007, 11:56 PM) [snapback]471338[/snapback]</div>

I don't argue that the hybrid is a bridge technology to the future of the automobile. Though the diesel hasn't been in cars for quite a century, only since the 1930's, it and other ICE technologies are reaching their peak in my opinion. The future will be in electric drives even if the power still comes from a ICE or similar generator.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jul 2 2007, 02:15 PM) [snapback]471661[/snapback]</div>

I am an engineer as well and one working the the drivetrain and transmission / transaxle industry. Electric drives are the future whether you like it or not. The Prius is not perfect, in fact it is far from it, but it is a step toward the future. If you expect to continue to see automobiles propelled by a ICE connected to mechanical drivetrain for much longer I would have to conclude that you are simply quite crazy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 2 2007, 03:15 PM) [snapback]471776[/snapback]</div>

A Diesel genset seems like it would be optimal for a series hybrid, though you can optimize a petrol engine quite a bit if you can keep it in its ideal RPM range like you could with a genset. If got another question for you, since you're obviously in the know on Diesels... I've heard that it takes more oil to produce x amount of diesel than the same amount of gasoline. I've also heard the exact opposite. Which is it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 2 2007, 06:26 PM) [snapback]471886[/snapback]</div>

I'm not a petroleum or oil expert but I have read quite a bit on the subject. Diesel fuel is a larger molecule than gasoline and contains more energy per gallon. So it has a great energy density than gasoline. This increase energy density is responsible for 2/3rds of the 30% better fuel economy that a diesel vehicle has compared to a similar gasoline vehicle.

You can convert diesel into gasoline. In very simple terms, you take the large diesel molecules, break them up, and reassembly them into smaller gasoline molecules. Of course this all requires energy. See the following schematic of a typical US oil refinery process flow:



So to answer you question it is both.
Diesel is has a higher energy density than gasoline so each gallon of diesel has a greater percentage of the barrel of oil than a gallon of gasoline. However, because we skew our refining to produce the maximum amount of gasoline possible, we use a lot of energy to turn heavy fuels like diesel and fuel oil, into gasoline. So at the refining stage, making gasoline from crude oil consumes more energy than making diesel fuel does.

 

Very interesting schematic, thanks. I knew about Diesel's greater energy density and I also knew that petrol is more heavily refined (I've come across Naptha in articles a few times, though I'm not sure precisely what it is... I'll have to check Wiki or something similar). It seemed logical that since Diesel contains more energy per volume that it would take more oil to produce a given quantity of it. The breaking down of the larger molecules requiring more energy makes sense too. One question that pops in me noggin' is, what form of energy? Is it a heating process that cracks the oil into a variety of other compounds? Is it adding hydrogen (basically steam reformed natural gas, so more heat there). Probably both, right? I notice that a lot of the steps show H2 in and "gas" out. Do you know what "gas" the schematic is talking about? Is it CO? CO2? Something else?

I'm looking forward to the day when we can just use electricity and skip all of these intermediate steps that waste energy. It's no wonder that gasoline has a negative energy balance. The energy balance is obviously somewhat better for Diesel I assume.