Imagine if we were able to meet the most knowledgeable and educated person from the 14th century...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 17 2007, 02:24 PM) [snapback]480367[/snapback]</div>

I think you should build a new windmill - seems like you are the only one chasing this one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 17 2007, 01:10 PM) [snapback]480357[/snapback]</div>

Again I think you miss my point. Most people believe in these philosophies because they ultimately feel it makes their life better. You said "Someday humanity will out grow the outdated thinking and philosophies that are now obsolete. Humanity will realize that all religious thinking is synonymous to magical thinking and won't lend credence to the decisions that guide humanity." Can't you say the same thing about any theory or philosophy that is based on anything other than strictly scienctific evaluation? Trivial things such as human rights, liberalism, conservatism, morality, freedom? Arent they all based in a faith of some kind, and thus, are "magical thinking"? These concepts aren't based in science, so where do they come from? Are they, too, obsolete?

 

CAUTION FOR BURRITOS: DO NOT READ THE FOLLOWING LINK UNLESS YOU WISH TO BE CREEPED OUT WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF US BELIEVE IN GOD (or a universal spirit or higher power.) (wouldn't want to ruin your day with the knowledge that we are all around you. :lol: )

Gallup Poll On Religion:
http://www.galluppoll.com/content/default.aspx?ci=1690

 

I always wonder about polls on religion. I personally think there are more people out there who are atheist/agnostic than the polls reflect - they just don't want to be open about their beliefs. That is starting to change, though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 17 2007, 07:14 PM) [snapback]480555[/snapback]</div>

Without religion morality becomes a consensus opinion of people - when that happens you get Nazi Germany and the killing fields, and darfur, etc, etc.

We all have beliefs in God - we just differ in the number of Gods we believe in.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 18 2007, 08:53 AM) [snapback]480823[/snapback]</div>

They "don't want to be open about their beliefs" on an anonymous poll...uh, right.

A more accurate statement for the atheists would be "lack of beliefs" (except for the belief that they are right and everyone who disagrees is wrong) and they are anything but reticent about it!

Nice try though.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DelerPrius @ Jul 18 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]480836[/snapback]</div>

Very nicely done - God Bless You.

Atheists have beliefs - obviously. Like i said everyone believes in God, we just differ in the number of Gods we believe in. I believe in one God, atheists believe in no God - and do so very strongly, and without evidence too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 17 2007, 06:14 PM) [snapback]480555[/snapback]</div>

If morality results from collective human thinking, logic, and compassion, then it follows that things such as rape, murder, slavery, discrimination, stoning unbelievers and adulterers , etc. are all simply what we have decided are wrong for today. Tomorrow we could change our minds and they would be moral. This is what I see as the central flaw in your theory that religion will "go away" like Greek mythology has. People simply don't want that kind of transient "whatever fits the bill" definition of what is right and wrong. That isn't how most people think. Most people feel that something that is wrong (such as child rape) is wrong anywhere, anytime, regardless of the culture or current status of collective human thinking. Arguing that this basic sense of right and wrong will simply go away because it isn't logical is what I would call wishful thinking or maybe even "magical thinking".

 

Amazingly, people are not always honest on an anonymous poll. It doesn't really matter WHY they aren't honest - they just aren't.

If we had a poll on penis size here on PriusChat, what sort of answers would you get? I would bet that we'd end up with nearly zero respondents choosing "small" and very few picking "average." A surprising number of people would turn out to be either "above average" or "very large."

You'd get similar results if you polled women on weight.

If I took a religion poll, I probably wouldn't answer it truthfully because it's really nobody's business but mine.

I'm also not sure how the belief that "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" is any different from the beliefs of many other religious adherents. Is it a GOOD thing when you are secure in your beliefs that your religion is correct and you will go to heaven - but somehow it's a BAD thing when someone else is secure in their beliefs - because those beliefs simply must be wrong!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 18 2007, 09:43 AM) [snapback]480838[/snapback]</div>

Only God knows what you are trying to say here.

Godwins Law - kind of ironic aint it? My statement is true - without a belief in God, mankind becomes the arbiter of morals and ethics and by consensus opinion - as happened in Nazi Germany, in Rowanda, in Darfur, in the Killing Fields.

You should study religion in Nazi Germany. And only God know what the Pope being German has anything to do with this post.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 18 2007, 09:44 AM) [snapback]480842[/snapback]</div>

That is why i believe the overwhelming majority of Americans stand behind the War in Iraq.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Jul 18 2007, 09:43 AM) [snapback]480841[/snapback]</div>

very well put.
God Bless You too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 18 2007, 09:56 AM) [snapback]480849[/snapback]</div>

Are Muslim extremists following the teaching of their religion when they use it to murder?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 18 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]480850[/snapback]</div>

Probably. Similarly probable would be the athiests, agnostics, christians, hale bop's, evolutionists etc. Or was that a leading question.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Jul 18 2007, 10:20 AM) [snapback]480864[/snapback]</div>

I will let you have another shot at answering my question.

 

And this should be very easy to prove. Let's take a look at who is in prison and find out what religious persuasion they might be. In the US, the majority of prisoners consider themselves Christian of some flavor. Not all of them are "jailhouse conversions" either - many were Christian before they entered the prison system.

Obviously, their religion has not compelled them to be moral. While the religion may give a framework for morality, prescribing to a religion does not necessarily make them moral people.

Personally, I am not sure of my religious stance. I started out Lutheran and converted to Eastern Orthodoxy 15 years ago. I go with my husband to the Catholic church from time to time. But I find myself leaning towards agnosticism lately.

No matter what my religious feelings at any particular point, my "moral compas" has never wavered. I have always held some things to be immoral - murder, rape, adultery, lying, cheating, etc. It didn't matter whether ot not I thought I would be rewarded in the afterlife...those things were just always WRONG to me.

My parents didn't raise me to be religious at all. We were "Lutheran" by custom, but never went to church, read the Bible, etc. Yet somehow they managed to pass along their morals to me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 18 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]480870[/snapback]</div>

You did not answer my question, my good doctor. Do you believe Islam to be based on the individuals ability to interpret it on an individual level? And you need to get a little more modern than the crusades - or perhaps you are saying that Islam is hundreds of years behind the rest of the "modern" religions?

And i will respectfully disagree with the rest of your statement. By allowing man to be the arbiter of morals and ethics you allow for a great variety of rights and wrongs - depending on the prevailing winds - not true in religion - there is ONE set of right and wrong.

Morality you might have argued or the pursuit of morality was the basis of the creation of some religions because man knew of the difficulties of letting man and their consensus opinions be their determining factors. It is difficult to be religious and not be moral.