Questions regarding the eco-friendliness of the Prius and the business ethics of Toyota

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 22 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]483364[/snapback]</div>

Hydrogen may be an alternative, but is it really a lot cleaner than gasoline on the well-to-wheel analysis? Currently the "cheapest" way to make hydrogen is via natural gas reforming, which is hardly "clean". Sure one day when hydrogen is generated electrolytically with renewable power will make the hydrogen clean but we're still a ways from that. Another problem with hydrogen (either ICE or fuel cell) cars is its storage. In fact it is one of the biggest challenges right now to move hydrogen cars a commercial viable option. No one has figured out a practical way to store enough hydrogen to run 300miles (DOE target) within reasonable weight, volume, cost, and other technical problems (i.e. hydrogen run-off).


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 22 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]483364[/snapback]</div>

Warming up the fuel tank is a nice and simple idea but it also decrease the overall efficiency of the car. And how does this this fuel tank warmer work? Do you have to use it like a block heater where you heat it up before you can drive the car? Bio-diesel mix with regular diesel is probably not that bad of the idea. I think anything you do that reduces emission is a good thing.

Biodiesel is not free. Anything that needs to be processed costs energy and money. It may be cheap to get as the starting material is a waste product from some other industry, but its still not free. I do, however, agree with you that biodiesel can be carbon neutral.

The bottom line, i think, is not to convince you that Prius is THE greenest car. I do believe, however, it is one attractive option for someone who is getting a car in the same price range to make the decision to go with a less polluting car. If your budget is around 20K, i think a Fit, a Yaris, or a Smart Car are ideal options. If your budget is around/below 30K, a Civic hybrid or a Jetta/Golf TDI is also a good choice. If your budget is around 35K (in Canada anyway), then instead of a Acura CSX, BMW 318, Pontiac G6, or Chyrsler 300M, why not taking a look at the Prius? There are those (like my parents) who don't want to drive an all plastic car (like a Yaris or Fit) but don't mind spending a bit more money. Let's give them some choices to go greener =).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(arolf @ Jul 25 2007, 03:07 PM) [snapback]484902[/snapback]</div>

SVO systems need to heat the fuel, biodiesel does not require heating. Lets get that straight. BIODIESEL REQUIRES NOTHING DIFFERENT THAN PETRO DIESEL. That is if the fuel system is designed so that the biodiesel doesn't destroy the o-rings and such.

Now for SVO, the heat comes from the cooling system. The conversion kits tap the cooling lines to circulate coolant along the fuel lines and back to the SVO fuel tank to a coil. A SVO system cannot be started and stopped on SVO. These systems have a small petro diesel tank that is used to start the vehicle. Once the vehicle is up to operating temperature and the SVO is heated then you switch over to the SVO. When you get close to your destination you have to switch back to petro diesel so that you don't have any SVO left in the fuel lines and injectors to cool and gel. SVO is really only good for someone that commutes long distances. If you are doing lots of short trips you will spend most of your time running on petro diesel anyway.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Jul 25 2007, 11:06 AM) [snapback]484702[/snapback]</div>

If you are concerned about the food supply stop eating meat, especially beef. The U.S. feedlot style of meat production is horrible inefficient and unhealthy for both the animals and people. 80% of grain produced in the U.S. is used as feed for livestock. Again, I repeat, 80% of grain produced in the U.S. is used as feed for livestock. Considering that the averaged American eats more than twice their daily recommend intake of protein, cutting back shouldn't be a problem. BTW, a serving of meat is 4 ounces or a little smaller than the average man's palm.

 

They also eat WAY too many carbs. Hence the morbid obesity and diabetes. In fact, most Americans consume too much energy in general (food intake + petrol + electricity). We're not alone... Europe is getting more deliciously plump every year. China is also experiencing "growing" pains.

That aside, biod does have one major out... algae. Algae appears to be the only sustainable way to ramp up biofuels to a truely massive scale. The erergy/acre numbers are much, much better than any crop. OTOH, it's not cheap at the moment. Hopefully between algae and waste we can produce enough hydrocarbon feedstock to meet limited liquid fuel needs as well as the myriad of petrochemicals that modern society needs. EVs will make massive amounts of liquid fuel unnecessary. At least I hope so.

The first generation biofuels are proving to be horrid from an enviro standpoint at even the modest levels that we're consuming them at. Clearly, we need to find another way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 25 2007, 02:28 PM) [snapback]484914[/snapback]</div>

Which she's a vegan she is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Jul 25 2007, 04:28 PM) [snapback]484914[/snapback]</div>

Biodiesel is an oxygenated diesel fuel made from vegetable oils and animal fats by conversion of the triglyceride fats to esters. In other words, they DO NOT have the aromatic (ring-structure) compounds. And it's the aromatic compounds that lowers the mixture freezing temperature. So.... just to make that clear, biodiesel does freeze in cold temperatures. there are additives that can be added, one option is to mix with normal diesel, but i think other compounds may also be added to lower the freezing temperature.

 

It's interesting how the discussion in this thread turned into a fairly arcane discussion of various high mileage vehicles.

If one were to doubt Toyota's business ethics, it would be on the grounds that building the Prius allow Toyota to build more trucks. However, while I've heard that argument, it isn't actually true, as truck and car averages aren't lumped together, and the Prius is not a classified as truck, as far as I know. It does, however, allow them to build more relatively spacious and powerful Avalons and Camrys, even though those cars probably don't give Toyota any trouble in meeting CAFE.

 

Of course, hydrogen (although there are a few vehicles running off of it) requires a great deal of energy to produce, and we really haven't figured out how to do this in a practical way; requires an entirely new infrasturcture that isn't even partly complete; requires several ways of storing it that aren't entirely practical.
Right now it would require the burning of very large amts. of fossil fuels.
There are folks that worked on this, were very pro- hydrogen and are now totally skeptical (at least in the near term). It may be a part of our future, but that is fairly far off, 2030 is the earliest that I have heard.
There certainly is a bunch of hype about this. Most of the press seems unaware that this is years, decades away.

I think the guy must be talking about people runnign their own stills for biodiesel, because it most definitely isn't free. If you can go around and collect old cooking oil and so forth you could do it. It is cleaner I suppose
Than some other options. But it isn't free. It also wouldn't even begin to supply all the fuel needed. If we all stopped eating meat tomorrow, which isn't going to happen, and converted 100% of our meat production corn, etc. to ethanol and various biofuels, we still couldn't power all the cars. Also then you'd have to argue just how carbon neutral it would be. My understanding is many of the crop chemicals (pesticides, herbicides, etc.)-- you don't think we'd grow it organically??-- are petrochemicals.


I agree there are other options. Nobody here, I think, is upset by other options. For instance very fuel efficient cars like the Fit or Yaris. Or efficient diesel cars.

--des



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(arolf @ Jul 25 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]484902[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 26 2007, 05:07 PM) [snapback]485315[/snapback]</div>

Would you please let us know the pointer about your assumption?

Following is our data...
http://www.airia.or.jp/number/pdf/03_32.pdf

They are for passenger cars, trucks and busses.
For example...
Year 2006 in Japan, the average passenger car life is 11.10 years.

Toyota already did the Prius LCA or life cycle assessment.
Following is the 2004 Toyota Prius Green Report:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf
(you'll need to download the Japanese fonts for your PDF reader in order to read it, but the entire document is written in English.)

Ken@Japan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 26 2007, 03:07 AM) [snapback]485315[/snapback]</div>

I don't get this whole "since its a gas-car it's still horrible" mindset. Unless you are one of our few EV drivers, then you are driving a gas-powered car like everyone else. Prius is the LEAST environmentally damaging vehicle you can buy and drive (excluding EVs). Period. That's what has been proven over and over by many. So why knock it? You haven't offered a better solution, except to not buy a new car at all. Fine. May you never need a new car again. But when you do (and you will), buy the best thing out there, which is, of course, the PRIUS.

If you want to get across a point and have people listening, starting with lies is the dumbest way I've ever heard of. That's why everyone is either ignoring or bashing you, because you are spouting false facts and ideas about the Prius to try to prove your "point". Doesn't add up.

finally, some honest, good news!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(arolf @ Jul 25 2007, 09:15 PM) [snapback]485191[/snapback]</div>

Yes biodiesel will gel at low temperatures. However, petro diesel also gels at low temperatures. Ask me about driving along on the highway at 70 mph and just having your car stop running when the fuel gels. It is not a fun experience. Now I put an anti-gel additive in every tank of diesel anytime I will be driving in temperature below 40 F.

Most commercial biodiesel you will find is sold mixed with petro diesel. B5 and B20 are most common. These are 5% and 20% biodiesel respectively. B50 is also available but quite rare and B100 usually must be purchased by a biodiesel Co-Op that makes it specifically for it's members.

BTW from your post I assume you already know all of this but most people don't. There is still lots of confusion about biodiesel. My point was that with biodiesel, from the drivers perspective, it is not different than using petro diesel. Lots of people confuse SVO and biodiesel and interchange the terms.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 26 2007, 02:07 AM) [snapback]485315[/snapback]</div>

My last car was a 1990 Honda Civic. I had to have it towed to the dealership for "trade in" in OCT 2005 when I got my new car.

You made a case for biodiesel in the beginning of this thread... algae is the only way to produce enough in a sustainable manner, so I don't really see how this fits in with this new diatribe. Ethanol can also be produced from algae. Since you never mentioned EVs, I find it hard to believe that this thread is about sustainable transportation.

Not that the thread was devoid of merit. There have been some interesting discussions. None of it ground breaking, but google will index it and others who are interested may find it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 26 2007, 03:07 AM) [snapback]485315[/snapback]</div>

I think you've taken for granted that people purchased the Prius by displacing existing, functional conventional cars. My 87 Altima was on it's last legs when I traded it in for the Prius last year. It had an electrical problem where the car would shut down on a whim and this was the least of my concerns. There are plenty of newbees that post here asking opinions on this very same question, so it often is a consideration when people are considering this new purchase.

I will agree with you, to some degree, that the Prius is promoting ignorance. This results from the fact that the Prius is the only mass marketed vehicle with a smaller environmental footprint. Because of this, people probably consider this the only option when considering the environmental impacts of their new vehicle purchase. However, there is a contrary side of this argument in that the Prius is causing people to become even more environmentally aware as people are drawn to forums such as this and become aware of even more environmentally friendly options such as the electric vehicle. Several of us have drawn this conclusion and have committed that this type of vehicle will become our next vehicle as soon as it's available in a practical form.

I'm sure I'm not only speaking for myself when I comment that I had researched alternative energy sources before committing to my Prius purchase. I looked into biodiesel, but it is not widely available in my state (mostly only available to fleets) and it also had a poor performance track record for my cold winter climates. So while I appreciate that you're a supporter of this energy source, just like the electric vehicle it's not practical for all situations.

I will certainly agree with you that more than our reliance on alternative energy sources, conservation and reduction should be at the forefront. It's an unfortunate occurrence that our infrastructure typically promotes a car as a necessity. And unless that changes, or becomes a diminished persuasion, a car will remain a necessity. It's clear that the Prius remains the most environmentally sound car that's able to serve the most practical function. I hope to witness a change in this and consider my future purchase of an EV.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 26 2007, 04:07 AM) [snapback]485315[/snapback]</div>

Do I detect a note of frustration?

You may not post again, but I'm pretty sure you will read this thread to the end. Both a lot of typing and emotion expended on your end.

So what's it going to be, stew in frustration or start down a path of doing something constructive? What are you going to drive? What is the solution? Who exactly is the "You" that is constantly mentioned? Who exactly are the evil ring leaders claiming that the Prius saves the environment? What is it about a bucket of bolts called a Prius that is a magnet for extreme expression? ......and why the name budding philanthropist?

 

My Prius replaced a "Stolen" F250 so I suppose it is the thieves' fault who stole it that I caused more of a carbon footprint by getting a new car. lol If I ever meet them I will give them a thank you card.

 

I have a Prius because I like a reliable economical car of the size of the Prius.
I get the window sticker mileage.
If you prefer an oiler, get an oiler, my owning a Prius won't prevent that.
At the end of the day we will both be doing something to reduce our emissions and reliance on fossil fuels.

I'm at a complete loss as to why your posting on a Prius forum BP? Quick, is that the sound of the VW dealer's doors opening?
Truth is you most likely drive a F150.

 

The OP never made the point in his first post about his disgust with people buying new cars as opposed to running old ones into the ground. He never asked the PC community about the car their new Prius was replacing (although I seem to recall an entire thread devoted to this--way to use the "Search" tool).

We had a 1989 Honda Accord with 264,000 miles that we just couldn't keep putting more money into (not to mention that it didn't have any safety features beyond seatbelts). When we were purchasing, our two choices were a couple-year old Accord or a new Prius. We wouldn't normally go for a new car, but everything added up in the Prius' favor. We intend to run our new Prius into the ground before moving onto a different car--even though I'm sure we'll be jealous of people who are able to make the choice to buy plug-in hybrids or even EV's within the next few years. We have one car--that's the Prius--and otherwise, we walk, take the bus, or ride our bikes. We're making choices on where to buy a condo based on the fact that we only have one car and thus it needs to be on the bus line, within walking distance to businesses, etc.

I guess I just don't appreciate the assumptions made about the whole lot of us. If you want an answer to your question, ask it in the original post.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 26 2007, 01:07 AM) [snapback]485315[/snapback]</div>

Using fallacies does not help prove your original contentions, it destroys your credibility at the outset of the discussion. That is exactly what happened in this thread.

Another faulty assumption. Used cars are not all discarded into junk yards and landfills. Most are bought by people who cannot afford new vehicles. If people held on to their cars longer, it still will not cut down on the production of new vehicles, it may tilt the market toward less expensive cars that those who normally buy used cars could afford. Before you attack me, I drove my previous car for 18 years and 218,000 miles before I sold it; it is still on the road three years later.

B.S. The amount of fuel I saved on driving the Prius for the past 34 months more than made up for the amount of energy used in its production.

 

My last car was a 1990 Camry wagon, it has nearly 300,000km on it and I have owned it for 14 years.
I bought my Prius second hand, it has 60,000km on it. I will likely keep it for 14 years also.
I have never purchased a new car, I use other people's cast offs and because I only buy Toyota I know I will get many years of service from each one.
I look forward to using half the fuel over the next 14 years that I used over the last 14 years.
Still no one is stopping BP from trading his F150 on a second hand VW Polo Diesel.
Oh by the way, I use E10 ethanol blended fuel in the Prius.