Muslim foot baths!

Proco · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 31 2007, 09:49 PM) [snapback]488427[/snapback]</div>

How many of us grew us eating meatless lunches in public school on Friday?[/b]
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I did. And in an area of PA that was dominantly Protestant well after Vatican II was ratified.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 31 2007, 09:49 PM) [snapback]488427[/snapback]</div>

That doesn't make them holy diaper dunking fonts.[/b]
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holy diaper dunking fonts is officially my new favorite phrase.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 31 2007, 09:49 PM) [snapback]488427[/snapback]</div>

Once again, authorizing student funds for footbathing basins is NOT an endorsement of any religion. A footbath is not a religious icon or implement. It's.....a footbath.[/b]
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<strike>Amen.</strike> Wait ... that has religious connotations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 1 2007, 07:40 AM) [snapback]488559[/snapback]</div>

I find it fascinating that those who protest most about the separation of church and state have no issues at all as the state and the mosque become one.[/b]
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Are there bills in Congress to make Islam the official national religion? I must have missed that one.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2007, 10:02 AM) [snapback]488588[/snapback]</div>

Separation of Church and State does not mean that they can not be conducted together, but rather that they not be dependent upon or forced upon one another. No one is forcing Christians to use the foot bath, it isn't being placed in such a way as to make any other group or religion to feel pressured to conform or convert. Having readings from the Koran in class (assuming not a theologic or history class where such readings are critical to course work) or the Bible or such are crossing the line.

Accommodations are made in medical schools for those with various religious needs...these schools almost universally receive state funds.

We are not hypocrites, we're consistent in stating that one should be free to choose what one wants and not be pressured by others to conform/change. There is nothing about these foot baths that affects that. This is a simple accommodation of a need of a growing population of students. Read my first post in this thread, I think you'll find it difficult to disagree too much.[/b]
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Very well stated, Evan. What you've said here strikes right at the heart of what many people miss. We don't oppose religion. We oppose imposed religion. There's no imposition here. As you said, it's making an accommodation. Just as offering Kosher meals and a place for faith-based groups to meet is.

To answer a previous posters question (even though it was directed at Godiva), if the Jewish student population asked for proper hand-washing facilities, I'd have no problem with that, either.

efusco · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Aug 1 2007, 09:27 AM) [snapback]488596[/snapback]</div>

I would have two concerns about this. 1) Will future requests for religous accomodations by other faiths be provided for as willingly out of student fees as this one was? 2) Who decides what "over the line" means. Since state funds are not being used directly to fund this, would it be ok to use that money to build a confessional for Catholics? Supply the students with copies of the Bible/Koran/whatever they use?

I think the UofM is doing this because of the large population of Muslims in the Michigan area, and are thus trying to cater to prospective students. Nothing wrong with that, but what is next and where is the line? [/b]
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Clearly we've had to deal with similar issues in the past and things can get nuts when you get freaks like Jesse Jackson and some of the ACLU extremists involved. But I think it's pretty clear that large amounts of money and extreme measures for fringe or very small groups is not appropriate. But a large school with large populations with specific needs should be accomodated. I know that's all vague, but one would hope that logic and reason would prevail.

formerVWdriver · Aug 1, 2007

The accommodations don't end. I have a friend who teaches in a large, publicly funded university attended by many Arab students. Most of these students take classes in my friend's department. Her department head has issued a dress code for professors that includes, among other things, that women cannot wear sleeveless blouses and should not wear clothing that reveals their shapes. (I'm not talking about a dress code against skimpy, distracting apparel. I'm talking about a dress code equivalent to the American Burka -- shapeless and covered up.)

This change was instigated by the university's contacts in an Arab country. Their response is all about money. The Arab students pay a lot to go there. I repeat: this is a publicly funded university.

I am disgusted and offended by this. My friend is grateful for her job and goes along with it.

What happened to, "When in Rome, do as the Romans"? Instead, it seems to be: When in the U.S., do as in Mecca.

dbermanmd · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2007, 10:02 AM) [snapback]488588[/snapback]</div>

Dr. B,
I take it you'd be equally opposed to the school providing kosher food options in the public university's cafeteria? Or excluding red meat on Fridays?

Separation of Church and State does not mean that they can not be conducted together, but rather that they not be dependant upon or forced upon one another. No one is forcing Christians to use the foot bath, it isn't being placed in such a way as to make any other group or religion to feel pressured to conform or convert. Having readings from the Koran in class (assuming not a theologic or history class where such readings are critical to course work) or the Bible or such are crossing the line.

Accomodations are made in medical schools for those with various religious needs...these schools almost universally receive state funds.

We are not hypocrits, we're consistant in stating that one should be free to choose what one wants and not be pressured by others to conform/change. There is nothing about these foot baths that affects that. This is a simple accomodation of a need of a growing population of students. Read my first post in this thread, I think you'll find it difficult to disagree too much.
[/b]
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You make an excellent point. Where do you place the line - would you support the placement of holiday symbols during Christmas time or Hanukah or whatever holiday. How about a mezuzah on the door posts?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Aug 1 2007, 10:43 AM) [snapback]488609[/snapback]</div>

The accommodations don't end. I have a friend who teaches in a large, publicly funded university attended by many Arab students. Most of these students take classes in my friend's department. Her department head has issued a dress code for professors that includes, among other things, that women cannot wear sleeveless blouses and should not wear clothing that reveals their shapes. (I'm not talking about a dress code against skimpy, distracting apparel. I'm talking about a dress code equivalent to the American Burka -- shapeless and covered up.)

I am disgusted and offended by this. My friend is grateful for her job and goes along with it.

What happened to, "When in Rome, do as the Romans"? Instead, it seems to be: When in the U.S., do as in Mecca.
[/b]
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How about simple things like having to speak English. I too am shocked by this - I am surprised the ACLU has not taken this on.

efusco · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 1 2007, 09:44 AM) [snapback]488610[/snapback]</div>

You make an excellent point. Where do you place the line - would you support the placement of holiday symbols during Christmas time or Hanukah or whatever holiday. How about a mezuzah on the door posts? [/b]
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I think we had a similar discussion in the past...was it the airport Christmas tree thing or something?
My kids are in elementary school...they put up Christmas stuff there, they try to call it a "Holiday break" b/w the first and second semester, but everyone slips and most call it Christmas break.

I completely agree that the line is fuzzy. I have no problem with the occasional/seasonal displaying of religious symbols in a tasteful and reasonable fashion. Like the airport discussion long ago I don't have a problem with Hanukah symbols.

I think the Mezuzah, a more permanant mark, is problematic. Likewise crosses. Honestly I don't personally give a crap either way whether they're displayed...they're all meaningless to me. But I can see how others might find them offensive or unfair if one symbol or religion seemed to be more dominant than another and how it could become a game for student groups to get more of their particular religion's symbols displayed than their "competing" religions. Does that make sense...I just think permenant fixtures would be harder to regulate and keep things fair than the temporary seasonal ones which could be carefully regulated/limited by setting the times where they could be put up, locations, numbers and the deadline by which they would need to be taken down.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Aug 1 2007, 09:43 AM) [snapback]488609[/snapback]</div>

The accommodations don't end. I have a friend who teaches in a large, publicly funded university attended by many Arab students. Most of these students take classes in my friend's department. Her department head has issued a dress code for professors that includes, among other things, that women cannot wear sleeveless blouses and should not wear clothing that reveals their shapes. (I'm not talking about a dress code against skimpy, distracting apparel. I'm talking about a dress code equivalent to the American Burka -- shapeless and covered up.)

This change was instigated by the university's contacts in an Arab country. Their response is all about money. The Arab students pay a lot to go there. I repeat: this is a publicly funded university.

I am disgusted and offended by this. My friend is grateful for her job and goes along with it.

What happened to, "When in Rome, do as the Romans"? Instead, it seems to be: When in the U.S., do as in Mecca. [/b]
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Well, who's to blame here? I say it's your friend. Clearly this is an infringement upon her rights and forces her to conform to another culture's belief system. I refuse to believe that even a token effort at organized resistance to such rules would quickly result in their retraction.

If we individuals don't stand up for our freedoms and rights then we deserve the consequences of those who would impose changes upon us.

formerVWdriver · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]488613[/snapback]</div>

Well, who's to blame here? I say it's your friend. Clearly this is an infringement upon her rights and forces her to conform to another culture's belief system. I refuse to believe that even a token effort at organized resistance to such rules would quickly result in their retraction.

If we individuals don't stand up for our freedoms and rights then we deserve the consequences of those who would impose changes upon us.
[/b]
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Two problems here: one is that my friend needs the job and works under the threat of layoffs because of enrollment problems. The second problem is that my friend, like many others in that department (I've been to many gatherings with them, so I do know them), are nice people but completely indoctrinated into being PC. They're against George Bush, the war, etc. So they put on their American Burkas and go to work.

They might protest the war, but not their dress code.

efusco · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Aug 1 2007, 10:01 AM) [snapback]488619[/snapback]</div>

Two problems here: one is that my friend needs the job and works under the threat of layoffs because of enrollment problems. The second problem is that my friend, like many others in that department (I've been to many gatherings with them, so I do know them), are nice people but completely indoctrinated into being PC. They're against George Bush, the war, etc. So they put on their American Burkas and go to work.

They might protest the war, but not their dress code. [/b]
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Again, if she's not willing to stand up for what's right despite some personal risk then she deserves what she gets. Nobody ever said it was easy or painless to do what's right.

She should show up wearing what she wants, force the U to fire her, then sue them if she's not willing to take preemptive action.

Sensitivity and consideration of others is one thing, but conforming and surrendering a personal freedom is another. She shouldn't don leather gloves and stroke the muslim men's backs, but neither should she change who she is. Compromise to some degree on both sides is reasonable, but neither should expect dramatic change and in any case the interloper should be willing to make the greater accomodation.

dbermanmd · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]488613[/snapback]</div>

I think the Mezuzah, a more permanant mark, is problematic.

If we individuals don't stand up for our freedoms and rights then we deserve the consequences of those who would impose changes upon us.
[/b]
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A foot bath is a permanent mark too. And where are they going to pray on campus? And will they object to others using the foot bath to wash their feet - something I would love to see happen, especially by a female in a holter top and shorty shorts (not for my enjoyment mind you, but as a test if you understand my point).

I would insist upon tradition wash basins at every dining area for Jewish students at this point too.

scargi01 · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]488631[/snapback]</div>

Again, if she's not willing to stand up for what's right despite some personal risk then she deserves what she gets. Nobody ever said it was easy or painless to do what's right.
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Would you say the same thing about the African Americans that didn't protest racism prior to MLK?

efusco · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 1 2007, 10:30 AM) [snapback]488635[/snapback]</div>

A foot bath is a permanent mark too. And where are they going to pray on campus? And will they object to others using the foot bath to wash their feet - something I would love to see happen, especially by a female in a holter top and shorty shorts (not for my enjoyment mind you, but as a test if you understand my point).

I would insist upon tradition wash basins at every dining area for Jewish students at this point too. [/b]
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It's a foot bath, not a religious symbol and more than a wine glass is a religious symbol for Catholics. Certainly the purpose is to accomodate a religious practice, I understand that.

The foot baths will be in a private bathroom, so anyone in a halter will be able to do it in private. But I concur, if the muslims begin to object to fair use by others then there will be problems. It's a 2 way street though, if Christians start using it, fouling it, damaging it just to object to the presence then yea, the problems that evolve will be justified. But if people are using it as a simple foot wash then there should be no reason to object.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Aug 1 2007, 10:31 AM) [snapback]488636[/snapback]</div>

Would you say the same thing about the African Americans that didn't protest racism prior to MLK? [/b]
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Sure, it was a difficult and painful process..but also quite different. They were fighting for rights that had previously been refused them...a much steeper uphill climb. The fight to retain rights we already have should be simple and one not shied away from. If your friend doesn't have the mettle for it someone else will, I have no doubt of that.

desertbriez · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Aug 1 2007, 07:43 AM) [snapback]488609[/snapback]</div>

The accommodations don't end. I have a friend who teaches in a large, publicly funded university attended by many Arab students. Most of these students take classes in my friend's department. Her department head has issued a dress code for professors that includes, among other things, that women cannot wear sleeveless blouses and should not wear clothing that reveals their shapes. (I'm not talking about a dress code against skimpy, distracting apparel. I'm talking about a dress code equivalent to the American Burka -- shapeless and covered up.)

This change was instigated by the university's contacts in an Arab country. Their response is all about money. The Arab students pay a lot to go there. I repeat: this is a publicly funded university.

I am disgusted and offended by this. My friend is grateful for her job and goes along with it.
What happened to, "When in Rome, do as the Romans"? Instead, it seems to be: When in the U.S., do as in Mecca.
[/b]
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or when in the U.S. do as they do in mexico... but that's another thread... another subject.....

the footbath thing... i'm leaning toward "meh"... let them have it... the dress code thing... WAY out of line!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Aug 1 2007, 07:45 AM) [snapback]488610[/snapback]</div>

You make an excellent point. Where do you place the line - would you support the placement of holiday symbols during Christmas time or Hanukah or whatever holiday. How about a mezuzah on the door posts?
How about simple things like having to speak English. I too am shocked by this - I am surprised the ACLU has not taken this on.
[/b]
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a HUGE pet peeve of mine! i'm so sick of immigrants these days REFUSING to learn english! what happened to coming here and trying to assimilate? now it's all about making the U.S. like the country(ies) they fled!!!! well if their country and language is so great... GO BACK! otherwise... come here and LEARN ENGLISH!

hycamguy07 · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jul 31 2007, 03:07 PM) [snapback]488222[/snapback]</div>

When I was 12, my brother 9 and my sister 6 we went on a trip to Italy, Germany, Austria and Switzerland with my parents...all in 21 days. In July/August. Plus a week visiting relatives. Whew.

Well, when we were in Italy we stayed in a very nice hotel. It looked like it had two toilets in the bathroom. Only one didn't have a seat/lid like the other. What are they we asked my parents. They paused for a moment, then said....why they're to wash your feet. Made perfect sense to us Californians used to walking barefoot everywhere in the summer time. So there we were in Italy in August...washing our feet in the bidet.

BTW It worked perfectly for the job.

But I guess Muslims would never accept washing their feet in the toilet. Given my choice of the sink or the toilet, I'd wash my feet in the toilet. Of course, I'd also probably carry some moist towelettes and just take my shoes off and use those to wash my feet.
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:huh: :blink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

koa · Aug 1, 2007

Why do the bathroom floors get slippery when they get wet? Don't they install nonslip tile for exactly that reason since the floor is likely to get wet? Use bigger bolts on the sinks to secure it to the wall. Shouldn't anyone washing their feet in the sink clean up after they are done? Bigger bolts and nonslip tile would be a lot cheaper than $25,000. Even if the money is not publicly funded it is coming out of a fund which could probably be doing more pressing maintenance that would affect many more students. I was curious what these foot baths actually look like but couldn't find anything searching.

formerVWdriver · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]488639[/snapback]</div>

If your friend doesn't have the mettle for it someone else will, I have no doubt of that.
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I predict you are wrong. It's a small concession, really. You get to keep your job. Who wants the Arab students (always male) staring at your body shape anyway? And it's a concession the department had to make to keep the Arab students and their money coming, so it would be worse than disloyal to protest.

You'd think people would stand up for what is right. But history proves that wrong. First you give in to the small things, like a dress code. Soon you don't even know what you're giving up.

The dress code has been in place for about a year. I guess they'll be getting footbaths next.

Devil's Advocate · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Aug 1 2007, 08:01 AM) [snapback]488619[/snapback]</div>

Two problems here: one is that my friend needs the job and works under the threat of layoffs because of enrollment problems. The second problem is that my friend, like many others in that department (I've been to many gatherings with them, so I do know them), are nice people but completely indoctrinated into being PC. They're against George Bush, the war, etc. So they put on their American Burkas and go to work.

They might protest the war, but not their dress code.
[/b]
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So she is protesting a war that is effectively trying to stop the imposition of standards and practices that she is being subjugated! Good for her, she deserves to wear an American Bruqua. I'd quit and move if I had too but more likely if this IS a publicly funded university I'd dress how I'd want to and wait to be fired and sue for discrtimination. If she can show that the dress code was imposed for religiou reasons she'll win a mint. (of tax payer dollars of course but oh well the University has to learn that capitulation is more painful than resolution). If the university can't get teachers it won't have students for long.

REMEMBER. This post isn't about not letting the muslims have foot baths, they can bring in portable ones and wash their feet all they want, its about the PUBLICLY FUNDED UNIVERSITY directly (or indirectly) pauying for the foot baths or allowing them to be permenanly installed in publicly funded buildings.

formerVWdriver · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Aug 1 2007, 02:42 PM) [snapback]488735[/snapback]</div>

So she is protesting a war that is effectively trying to stop the imposition of standards and practices that she is being subjugated! Good for her, she deserves to wear an American Bruqua. I'd quit and move if I had too but more likely if this IS a publicly funded university I'd dress how I'd want to and wait to be fired and sue for discrtimination. If she can show that the dress code was imposed for religiou reasons she'll win a mint. (of tax payer dollars of course but oh well the University has to learn that capitulation is more painful than resolution). If the university can't get teachers it won't have students for long.
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Ah, I agree. But my dear friend thinks the war is wrong and cultural sensitivity is a virtue.

She is a dear and wonderful person who believes that other people are as nice as she is. (In spite of knowing me....)

Devil's Advocate · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Aug 1 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]488739[/snapback]</div>

Ah, I agree. But my dear friend thinks the war is wrong and cultural sensitivity is a virtue.

She is a dear and wonderful person who believes that other people are as nice as she is. (In spite of knowing me....)
[/b]
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Yes, she probably is, but she will "cultral sensitivity" herself into slavery if she's doesn't accept that there are people who aren't nice. Or worse yet, people who say that they are only subjugating you for "nice" reasons and your own good of course.

The left is always screamg about the rights slippery slope, they mght want to watch the other side of the casm, that slope is actually more slippery since its is apparently hard to argue against subjugation for your own good.

Pinto Girl · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Devil's Advocate @ Jul 30 2007, 07:49 PM) [snapback]487725[/snapback]</div>

Why is this not a special accomodation, thereby, supporting the establishment of a state sponsored religeon?
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/a...-news-a_section
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This is, completely, a non-issue.

Can we talk about XMas decorations in public spaces, now?

These folks are a minority. You're in the majority. Do you not see how your positions are intrinsically different, and so any comparisons are inherently corrupted?

Tolerance is what makes our country great.

We all know that no one cares if this funding is used for other "more beneficial" purposes (whatever those may be; care to tell us?)...this issue is just being singled out as a weak attempt to show how the Left has gone too far somehow.

It's not working.

Bigger bolts on the sinks? The absence of "non skid flooring"? C'mon...y'all can't be serious.

And Tony's comment about women starting a cultural war by breastfeeding their babies in the same space is absolutely repugnant. Is this little teeny-tiny issue really that important to you...do you REALLY feel that threatened...that you find it necessary to prevent the practise of other religions? So much so, that you'd actually dare to suggest such a thing? Why do you care so much? I'm actually really appalled. These foot baths will benefit people for years, perhaps decades to come. What's wrong with that?

Surely there are other, more egregious violations, with which y'all can cite the Left...?

Try to think, and see if something actually happens.

Rae Vynn · Aug 1, 2007

Every job I've ever held had some sort of dress code.
Business is business. Education is still a business, they are still after the money... and they get that by increased enrollments.
They get increased enrollments by making the business attractive to their target customers.
I'm very familiar with K-12 teachers dressing very, very conservatively, in order to attract families. I'm also familiar with college instructors dressing "for success" to put across the idea that they were successful in their field, before leaving it for academia. Why would a university be any different?
This is the same, across the board.
I work in a cubicle, don't often see clients face-to-face, and yet I have a dress code to adhere to. It's part of the "corporate culture." I could "protest", just like I could find a different job. You make choices, and trade-offs, to get what you want.

DelerPrius · Aug 1, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 1 2007, 05:26 PM) [snapback]488868[/snapback]</div>

These foot baths will benefit people for years, perhaps decades to come. What's wrong with that?

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Which people, exactly? Besides Muslims, that is? Are there a lot of non-Muslims running around barefoot in Dearborn that will be able to make use of these foot baths? Cause I can't imagine anyone wearing shoes deciding to pop into the bathroom for a quick foot bath on anything approaching a regular basis.

Please do not insult our intelligence by expecting us to believe that anyone else besides Muslims is ever going to use these things. Your attempt to dismiss this as a non-issue only shows your inability to deny that these are being placed in a public building for religious reasons only: no one but Muslims is ever going to use them and they are using them for religious, not hygienic, purposes.

Muslim foot baths!

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