Navigation system aftermarket? (Prius in Hawaii)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 18 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]498426[/snapback]</div>

Hi Scott,

That is a very well-written review. I apologize is goes a little off-topic, though it is still related to Nav, which is the topic of this thread. I just would like to comment on a couple of the "deficiencies" of the Toyota NAV as Scott mentions in his writeup...

You can name any POI category with a voice command, and if you add "Nearest" before it, it will show the closest one. I.e. "Nearest Gas Station" will do just what you are asking. You can see the list if you are stopped, but this should be sufficient in a 'true' emergency.

The "Freeway Guidance" view is actually quite useful for this purpose. In this view, it has the map on the left and the next few upcoming exits on the right side. By default the next immediate exit is highlighted and at the top of the screen you will see icons for all the POIs near that exit (restaurants, gas stations, etc...). Simply press the "diamond" button in the top right corner of the screen and it will go to that exit and show all the POIs, simply select the one you want and it will tell you the title and you can set the destination if you wish. All while in motion. Furthermore, from the main Freeway screen the passenger can scroll further up to exits further away and check each one. It's actually a pretty useful view (even while in motion), once you are familiar with it!

What I do when I want to do this sort of measurement is set the first destination as where I want to measure from, and the second to where I want to go. You can toggle the "Arrival Time" to tell you how long the trip will take. I find this sufficient, for as infrequently as I need to do this. With respect to saving routes, you can always turn on the Trace Route function to leave breadcrumbs to follow on the way back. It wouldn't give you verbal directions, but it's better than nothing...

In fairness, this is not a knock against Toyota, but rather the map data provider. This should improve with each map update. One tip though, when you do a search by POI Name, you can further filter the results by selecting the City or Category. This makes it much easier to locate POIs, and is something new users often overlook (I did, for a couple weeks!). Incidentally, the term "POI" is an industry term, not something Toyota invented.

... you start the car. Just to clarify. For people not familiar, they may think you mean every time you want to look at the map. Personally, I don't see why people are so upset about this. It's one quick press. Hey, I'm saving startup time with my SKS and not having to mess with wires of an aftermarket system, so I see it as a really small trade-off.

Hmmm... score one for the Canadian Prius. B) I don't mean to make you feel bad, but this is a non-issue for Canadian Prii since we get Auto Headlights instead of HIDs. It is totally automatic, and independent of the headlight setting. I.e. As the sun does down, first the auto headlights come on, then about a half hour later (for example) as it gets darker, the MFD/Nav switches to nightmode. If I turn my headlights on during a daylight storm, the MFD/Nav is not affected unless the ambient light is low enough. Maybe this is why the Canadian models are more expensive. <_<

Now, I am not saying the Toyota NAV is perfect - no system is without it's flaws - but it is definitely a reasonable implementation, and one's opinion is greatly influenced by what they have previously used. Your points about interesections has been well debated, as has the lockout limitations. It is what it is, which I think does an acceptable job. It would be nice if it was a little less expensive, though. Handheld units will always be ahead of integrated units in terms of technology, partly because there is more "red tape" in getting integrated systems with manufacturers thus added time delay in bringing it to market.

Anyway, sorry for the long post...

 

Running through this quickly, to I apologize if I miss some things:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarge @ Aug 30 2007, 12:35 PM) [snapback]504341[/snapback]</div>

Except that it only shows you one gas station if you're driving (as well as not addressing the "on route" issue). I know that if I do that right here, it'll show me a gas station that shut down nearly ten years ago. Personally, I only go to name-brand gas, too, and I want to see CHOICES, not simply one place. Easy as pie on the Garmin, a PITA at best with the Nav system.

And what if you're not on a freeway? Just hope that you notice something coming up and that it's reasonably within reach?

But that's not so much the issue: the feature simply changes the functionality from "totally useless" to "almost totally useless." All that the Freeway Guidance view does is to move the map to the next exit (basically what you'd do by scrolling it). It still doesn't tell you if what you need is accessible. Say you use Freeway View and see a gas station that seems near the exit. OK, you set it as your destination, get off... and realize that the road it's on doesn't connect to the exit, so you have to drive five, ten miles to work your way back to it. Just seeing a map view doesn't tell you that the POI is actually accessible TO YOUR ROUTE.

But back to the earlier point. In the cross-country trip I mentioned in the epinions review, I drove over 8500 miles, more than a third of that on local roads. Freeway View would therefore have been totally useless when I wanted to find a gas station or motel near my route. There I am, driving along a country road, 100 miles from my (hoped-for) destination, and it's six PM; I want to get some rest. Where's a motel? No idea, because the Nav system won't tell me where there's one along the route I'm taking. I used the "On Route" function daily on my trip, several times a day; now, it's totally gone.

Not at all what I asked for. How does that help me PLAN routes and save them for future use? I'm not looking to find my way back (which is a different function), I want to be able to plan-out routes and save them. I did that most evenings when I drove cross-country--decided where I wanted to go the next day or two, planned out the routes on my Garmin, and if they looked good, saved them for the morrow--usually two or three routes at a time.

I'm familiar with all this, but it doesn't address the question. With the Garmin, I can search by distance around a particular location. What if I know approximately where the place is, but not the name of the town? With the Garmin, I can center the search on a location, but have it return results in an increasingly large radius and NOT just to the one town (as the Nav system so limits you). With the Nav system, why can I do that if I search by category, but not when I search by name? In the epinions review, I gave the example of trying to find a particular Carvel ice cream store. I knew about where it was, but I wasn't sure of the town; it could be one of several that border in the area. If I had the Garmin, I could have stuck the map pointer in the general area and have the GPS find Carvels in a radius around the pointer. With the Nav system, I had to enter the search town by town, one at a time, and when no results were returned, wonder if I'd gotten the town wrong or if there simply was no listing (turns out, it was the latter, even though the place has been there at least 15 years).

And to exacerbate the problem, as I'd noted, searching by Category wouldn't really help; Carvel ice cream was listed under multiple categories.

And yet Garmin, for example, calls them "waypoints." I'm not sure why you mention this.

OK, I clarified that in the review, but the problem remains-- it's not implemented intelligently, because it works that way when you want to continue your current route. Example: not long ago, I used the system to get to a particular location, but I stopped at a bank about 1/2 mile away from the destination. Didn't use the Nav system to go the remaining 1/2 mile, since it was clear where the place was. As a result, when I next turned on the Nav system a day or two later, it started to navigate me to the place I'd already been to; since I hadn't agreed to the disclaimer when I left the bank (in the middle of navigation) it stopped functioning and didn't know that I'd completed my trip. If I'm in the middle of using the bloody thing and simply stop in the middle of a route, why can't it be smart enough NOT TO FORCE ME THROUGH THE DISCLAIMER AGAIN???

And why is Toyota alone in this silliness? I have friends with OEM navigation systems, and they think I'm kidding when I tell them this.

I've only touched on the problems with the Nav system. That I can trust my 4-year-old Garmin more than the Toyota system is sad. It's not because I'm more familiar with the Garmin--I've largely used the Nav system for the last year (using the Garmin when I use others' cars or if I go on a long, complex trip and dare not rely solely on the unreliable Toyota system). I know the Nav system pretty well; it's just not very good.

I'm going to put up a longer document (with pictures) that explains these and other problems better; it's basically done, but I have to go through the graphics and shrink them down for web use.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Aug 30 2007, 10:31 PM) [snapback]504677[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure who you directed this to, but... yes, you just hit "suspend guidance." If you start a new route, you have to tell it to replace the existing one (once you find the first POI, it'll as to "Add to" or "Replace" the existing).

 

EDIT: Why didn't my HTML quotes work? :huh: Hmmm....

I think you were quite thorough in your equally long response, thanks for taking the time. I was not trying to discredit anything you were saying, but just providing comments on my experience. I will try to shorten this post.

I concede the point about the motion lockout being irritating, though if it really bothers you that much, there is a fairly easy mod with cutting a wire and installing a switch. I know it's frustrating to have to go to that length, but it is possible.

Do you really encounter this situation that often, where a POI located near the exit is not closely linked by street? Just curious.... I can't really think of an instance of that happening to me.

I agree that the "On Route" function is pretty useless due to it inflexibility as you describe. However, given that it takes as long as it does to query the database (from DVD), I am sure this is a technical limitation. In my mind from a programming perspective, it must be performing many searches in the background for each street "on route" to build that list - if it had to query each street within x radius as well, it would probably be WAY slower, and not acceptable at all. This is one aspect where the slower DVD media hinders the system vs flash memory in portable units. Just a theory...

I had suggested the breadcrumb feature in reply to your comment that "You also can't save routes for future use". Now that you have elaborated, I better understand what you meant.

I agree with you that this is something the system should support.

Another good point, though it will get better as the data (hopefully) gets cleaned up with each passing update.

I only mentioned it as you inferred that Toyota was stange by calling them POIs. In fact, "Point Of Interest" would be the proper name for any database entries, while a "Waypoint" would be stopover during a trip, but not the final destination (and also often a POI itself). I know it's all semantics, I just wanted to explain my reasoning.

I understand your point, but is this really something to sweat about? For legal reasons, Toyota feels we need to press "I agree" each time (sigh), and you can just get rid of the old route by saying "delete destination", "suspend guidance", or simply input a new destination and choose "Replace".

Well, I'm with you on that. However, given how many bad drivers are on the road, maybe having less distractions for some of these buffoons is not such a bad thing. Besides, the more "educated" ones know how to bypass the system if so desired.

... and that is likely the reason you harbour such ill-feeling toward the Toyota system, because you had used other systems. As I said at the beginning, there are trade-offs to all systems, which are weighed differently by everyone. I have used a portable NAV on my pocket PC that was decent (though not as good as some of the dedicated units now) and recognize many of the limitations of the Toyota system you and others have brought forward. But I still think it is WAY better than paper maps. (and more geeky). :lol: On a personal note, yes, I find the OEM NAV very pricy, but I happened to luck out on a demo car, so I got it for almost free in exchange for a little mileage. I dealt with hiding my faceplate and pocket PC every time I parked my last car and worried about theft, and decided I wanted the peace of mind of the integrated system, especially at the opportunity I had. Anyway, as you can tell, I recognize it's flaws, but I think it does an acceptable job.

Do you plan to send it to Toyota as well as some user recommendations for the future? B) If only they'd listen...

Thanks for the discussion. (I guess I didn't shorten it much, did I? I get carried away...) :huh:

 

You're missing some quote tags, so I might have overlooked some of your responses, mixed in with quotes from me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarge @ Aug 30 2007, 11:57 PM) [snapback]504714[/snapback]</div>

I've installed the Coastal Lockpick, which is a less-annoying alternative, but it has its own shortcomings (but that's another post). I'd love, love, love a remote control for the Nav system (like the Garmin has) but I know that's definitely dreaming. Or... imagine, basic controls at the end of the center console!! Keep your arm at rest (because reaching forward is a distraction) and using the Nav system (or other things not on the steering wheel). I know this is a Good Thing because the Garmin remote makes the unit very easy to use (and less of a distraction).

That's just an example of where that solution falls short (i.e., no easy access near an exit), but yes; I've seen it often in north-east New Jersey, among other places. Another example is where there is no POI right off the exit; the POIs are only visible at a scale showing about 2 or so miles on either side of the exit (about that; I forget the exact distance), so unless there's a gas station pretty close by, you're SOL (with the Garmin "near route" feature, you can expand the distance away from the route until you find something). And again, it's only usable on freeways--that's the biggest negative. Here, BTW, is a quick look at the Garmin "near route" results.

How much does flash memory cost, in bulk? If access speed was an issue, they could very easily cache the DVD to flash (upon DVD installation)--this would also make access more reliable and increase unit life. Besides, it doesn't have to do it all at once: when the Garmin displays results, it builds them by distance, showing searches within 2 miles, then 5, then 10, etc. Gives you results quickly, then keeps adding to the total number.

Considering how useless the "on route" function is, and how much the bloody unit costs, they could make it more functional.

(re: trying to find a specific restaurant where I wasn't sure of the town.) That might be the case of making the data more accurate, but it won't add that function.

Never intended that implication; just explaining that the same items are referred to with different terms.

If it's in the middle of being used, it either (1) shouldn't display the disclaimer AGAIN, or (2) ought to "OK" itself after a brief display and go on to display the route you just programmed. My point about the old route is that I wasn't using the routing system--I had just put the map display on. It should have known that navigation is complete.

And yes, it does matter: that's what makes a good UI. It's a matter of proper design. It's an example of product design that makes me wonder if the designers actually tested it with "real people."

Then they shouldn't have added Bluetooth cell phone connection, as jabbering away on the phone is far more of a distraction.

I dislike the Nav system because I know what's possible, not that I'm used to something else--I want to make that point clear. The Nav system cost about 3 times what I paid for my Garmin, and the only advantages are (1) larger, high-res screen (less of an advantage compared to a newer model Garmin than to mine), (2) that it's integrated to the drive train, so I don't lose the signal in tunnels or under a heavy tree canopy. I find it very frustrating to think that I own a much newer, MUCH more expensive system that is less useful than what I've had since early 2004.

I'm not a programmer, but I've done a lot of UI work for those who are, and I think usability is king. The way I see it, a system ought to make the user smile at its cleverness, not sigh and think "well, I guess it works, sort of, basically." If you're comparing a $3000 navigation to paper maps... well, it's not a testament to the Nav system to require a comparison to centuries-old technology to make it look good.

Oh, I did, cc'd to Denso America (the OEM of the nav system). That's how I have a document with pictures--I know that some of the things I'm describing are obscure, so I thought illustrations were needed. I have a basic version of the doc up on a web page; when I clean it up, I'll post a link.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM) [snapback]504740[/snapback]</div>

You make very good points and I pretty much agree with everything you said and don't think it is necessary to go any further in depth on those points, as we are beating a dead horse... Essentially, it is what it is. For anyone who has a NAV-equipped Prius, they can either choose to continue complaining about it's deficiencies vs system X, or just make the best of it. Personally, I choose the latter... I appreciate that aftermarket/portable systems have superior technology and will probably look at one of those on my next car, provided the car is suited for it (i.e. double-DIN radio ideally).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM) [snapback]504740[/snapback]</div>

I agree about the UI. Perhaps my comment about maps didn't come out the way I intended. My point was that the purpose of a NAV system is to guide people from point A to point B, particularly when they don't know the way. For this, it works quite well, except in the case where the data may be incomplete/inaccurate (which varies by region). I agree that the UI is not perfect, but it is sufficient for most users, particularly if they have not used other systems in the past. Would I like to see some (or all) of your suggestions? Sure! They all make good sense. Will they happen on this gen system? Possibly (since they can update firmware with map updates), but unlikely, I know. Given the nature of the Prius radio/MFP, adding an integrated Kenwood unit (which is a very good system) is not easy/practical. So I decided to go for convenience and the deal I was offered. But that's just me.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 31 2007, 01:00 AM) [snapback]504740[/snapback]</div>

Great! While I doubt Denso would act on the comments of a single user, passing on feedback definitely can't hurt...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sarge @ Aug 31 2007, 11:50 AM) [snapback]504917[/snapback]</div>

This discussion wasn't simply a matter of complaining about the Nav system; the original point of this thread was a response to someone who was unable to get the Nav system where they lived, and wanted to know if they ought to make a larger effort to secure one. My response: no.


OK, it might need revision and proofreading, but here's a more-complete critique, with pictures.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ScottR @ Aug 31 2007, 12:04 PM) [snapback]504922[/snapback]</div>

Indeed... and again I apologize for hijacking the thread... To the OP's original question, I agree with you that I do not believe it would not be worth the hassle and expense of bringing in a special order to Hawaii...

 

I have the toyota built in Nav system and find it to be completely adequate for my needs. True it doesn't have all the bells and whistles my Garmin has (I use the garmin mostly on my bike for trips), but I have found ways around most of the knocks you've mentioned. For instance, zoom all the way in and lots of the street names dissappear. I don't know why, but zoom out a little and they show up. Go figure. I also use voice command and tell it to find stations and it populates the whole screen with gas stations. Mine is an 06, perhaps that makes a difference.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bhaynnes @ Aug 31 2007, 05:13 PM) [snapback]505140[/snapback]</div>

Mine is an '06 also. Have a look at the web page I put up, and you should see why what you say about the gas stations doesn't address the problem.