VW's 52 MPG Cars

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 6 2007, 06:38 PM) [snapback]508267[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, but how does all that volume translate to usable "total volume" will differ for each person. For instance shorter people don't exactly need a couple cubic feet above their heads, those that might want to move bulkier than normal items would require a back seat that folds down and a back that opens up completely (I would not have bought a Prius if it stayed the same design as the 1st gen)

 

A 52 MPG Diesel is better for the world than a 45 MPG Prius. NOx and particulate emissions, nasty though they are, create local and short-lived problems. Oil dependency creates global political problems, and CO2 emissions add to a global environmental problem.

 

Short-lived? That's a life-expectancy term, right? And breathing clean air is required for many creatures on this planet.

I recall smog alerts "surfacing" several years ago, like 30 (the dirty 70s).

Still today, there are green days and red days and a few shades in-between for several world cities.

I'm not sure short-lived and local means well for an overall pollution outlook.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Sep 10 2007, 10:52 AM) [snapback]510039[/snapback]</div>

Ricardo has just announced a SULEV (tier 2 bin 2) diesel. Diesel does not necessarily need to emit any more NOx or particulates than gasoline - it's just taken time for the emission reductions R&D that took place for gasoline to be applied to diesel vehicles.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/08/ricardo-announc.html

I live in a European city where more than half the vehicles are diesel powered and as a cyclist commuter, I'm still more concerned about CO2 emissions than NOx or particulates (although the diesel vehicles we have over here are much cleaner than what you have in the States).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(richard schumacher @ Sep 10 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]510039[/snapback]</div>

But it takes more oil to make the diesel in the first place so this statement may not be true.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MikeSF @ Sep 10 2007, 09:33 AM) [snapback]510025[/snapback]</div>

You are correct, everyone's needs are different. If you need to haul cargo then the Rabbit would be the clear winner. The Prius slopes down quite a bit in the back while the Rabbit/Golf is a traditional wagon shape. If you need to transport 4 adults the Prius has more rear passenger room.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Sep 10 2007, 10:52 AM) [snapback]510071[/snapback]</div>

Yes diesel is a larger molecule so it has more energy than gasoline. However, if you were to make that diesel into gasoline you would need to crack that large molecule into smaller molecules and reassemble them into gasoline. This is an energy intensive process that defeats the purpose if your purpose is to use the energy in oil most efficiently.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Sep 10 2007, 11:52 AM) [snapback]510071[/snapback]</div>

When it comes to biofuels though you get far more diesel per acre (or energy input) than you get ethanol.

 

Hi All,

Butanol can be produced at the same volume as Ethanol, per bushel or acre. And it has the nearly the same energy as gasoline. I imagine that is competitive with biodiesel. Since you need methanol and catalyst to make biodiesel from plant oil.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Sep 10 2007, 12:10 PM) [snapback]510107[/snapback]</div>

The volume of production depends on the plant used. We used poor performers for both ethanol and biodiesel.

From Biodiesel: Growing a New Energy Economy

Biodiesel Crops:
Oil Palm: 635 gallons per acre
Coconut: 287 gallons per acre
Jatropha: 202 gallons per acre (BTW this is a bush that grows in semi-arid, marginal locations)
Rapeseed: 127 gallons per acre
Peanut: 113 gallons per acre
Sunflower: 102 gallons per acre
Safflower: 83 gallons per acre
Mustard: 61 gallons per acre
Soybean: 48 gallons per acre
Corn: 18 gallons per acre

From Wikipedia:

Ethanol Crops
Corn: 330 to 420 gallons per acre
Sorghum: 270 to 750 gallon per acre
Sugar Cane: 570 to 700 gallons per acre

However, the energy balance is in the favor of biodiesel. This is because biodiesel is a "cold-process" and ethanol production is a "hot-process".

To make biodiesel you press the plant to extract the oil. This takes very little energy. Then the oil is strain and then mixed with small amounts of either methanol or ethanol and a catalyst. The mixture is allowed to settle and separate. Then the biodiesel is drained and the glycerin is removed. The only step that requires much energy is bringing the biodiesel up to about 50 C for 2 hours to remove the alcohol.

To make ethanol you combine the grain with yeast to allow for fermentation and to form the beer. Then the beer is boiled off in a distillation process, each time increasing the concentration of alcohol until it is 100%. This requires a lot of energy input

That is why Ethanol has a net energy ratio of 1.34 compared to about 3.2 with biodiesel (7.0 with a new continuous process used at a new plant built by West Central Soy in Ralston, Iowa. It reclaims the methanol and process water to be reused)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 10 2007, 10:35 AM) [snapback]510088[/snapback]</div>

The context was reduced foreign oil imports, i.e. energy security. I think diesel hybrids would be a far better solution and I don't understand the bickering here. These are good developments. As ICE's go, the diesel is superior to the petrol version. However, NEITHER OF THEM ARE END GAME SOLUTIONS!!! So talking about diesels being better or whatever is a bit ridiculous. Gas electric hybrids/diesels are just stepping stones/holding actions. They're not scalable in the long run. Hybrids offer a glimpse at a long term solution. Diesels offer immediate improvements in fuel consumption vs petrol vehicles.

Apparently some folks have come up with a way to make ethanol from the glycerin that's a by product of the biodiesel process. This is important because the glycerin was getting to be a problem (there is too much of it being produced). Also, different algae species can be used to make ethanol/bio diesel. The feedstocks we're using now are temporary, thankfully. Better solutions are out there.

 

You'll only get to 95.5% with distillation alone. To get the rest of the way, you need to mix some benzene in for the final distillation. And then the ethanol will just absorb moisture out of the air until it's back to 95.5%.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Sep 10 2007, 02:21 PM) [snapback]510190[/snapback]</div>

I agree wholeheartedly and have one of each!

That is why I tend to stick up for diesel technology every time someone here tries to perpetuate the myth that the diesels of the 70 and 80's are still the diesels of today.

I do the same with hybrid technology over at TDIclub.com when people say hybrid battery fail in 5 years and coast $10,000 to replace. :lol:

To me they are both good technologies for reducing our energy consumption in the short term. As you said neither is a long term solution to our energy problems.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ShellyT @ Sep 10 2007, 02:57 PM) [snapback]510207[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the correction. I need to read The Alcohol Fuel Handbook and Forget the Gas Pumps; Make Your Own Fuel again.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CVS @ Sep 9 2007, 07:54 PM) [snapback]509760[/snapback]</div>

Have you tried the following:

TP 45psi
blocked upper grill (full block in the winter)
temp set to 79F or a couple degrees below OAT
EBH

If most of your driving is 5 minute trips 55mpg is probably unrealistic.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CVS @ Sep 9 2007, 07:54 PM) [snapback]509760[/snapback]</div>

Have you tried the following:

TP 45psi
blocked upper grill (full block in the winter)
temp set to 79F or a couple degrees below OAT
EBH

If most of your driving is 5 minute trips 55mpg is probably unrealistic.

 

Well when I went to the VW dealer to test drive one of these they didn't have any and toyota had 10 prii, so I bought a toyota, don't give me hype about a car that is not available, I cannot walk for 2 years while I wait for a car, plus VW are junk, replacing a $5000 clutch every 2 years is not my idea of an efficient car.

 

Well when I went to the VW dealer to test drive one of these they didn't have any and toyota had 10 prii, so I bought a toyota, don't give me hype about a car that is not available, I cannot walk for 2 years while I wait for a car, plus VW are junk, replacing a $5000 clutch every 2 years is not my idea of an efficient car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 10 2007, 10:12 AM) [snapback]509990[/snapback]</div>

Kind of what I was expecting. The official numbers come out high and then come back down to earth with time. Like what happened with all of the Prius stories saying like 70mpg initially. Until the numbers do come out, not much point in arguing about IMO. I will admit that I do come from the side that hybrids are better, but that doesn't mean that diesels are bad (especially now with ULSD and stricter emissions requirements).

I wonder sometimes though if there is some vast conspiracy that has resulted in diesel owners and hybrid owners sniping each other rather than sniping those who are doing nothing to improve their efficiency. I have spent a little time at TDI club, mainly in response to a poster from there challenging us here at PC a couple of years ago. I couldn't watch it for long though, only about a month, although long enough to get in some fiery debates. Maybe there isn't a conspiracy, the egos involved lead it to often becoming a pissing contest that ends with both sides all wet. Kudos to you though for trying to be advocates for both sides on the boards.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 10 2007, 10:12 AM) [snapback]509990[/snapback]</div>

Kind of what I was expecting. The official numbers come out high and then come back down to earth with time. Like what happened with all of the Prius stories saying like 70mpg initially. Until the numbers do come out, not much point in arguing about IMO. I will admit that I do come from the side that hybrids are better, but that doesn't mean that diesels are bad (especially now with ULSD and stricter emissions requirements).

I wonder sometimes though if there is some vast conspiracy that has resulted in diesel owners and hybrid owners sniping each other rather than sniping those who are doing nothing to improve their efficiency. I have spent a little time at TDI club, mainly in response to a poster from there challenging us here at PC a couple of years ago. I couldn't watch it for long though, only about a month, although long enough to get in some fiery debates. Maybe there isn't a conspiracy, the egos involved lead it to often becoming a pissing contest that ends with both sides all wet. Kudos to you though for trying to be advocates for both sides on the boards.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Elephanthead @ Sep 13 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]511901[/snapback]</div>

Which car did you go to the VW dealership to drive, the European only Golf that started this thread or the new 2008 TDI that will be available in 2008? Really, you're pissed because VW didn't have a car that has been announced to be available in March/April of 2008 in the Summer of 2007? :huh:

You expect to pay $5000 to replace a clutch? Boy your mechanic is ripping you off. A clutch costs about $150 to $300 depending on how good of one you get. So that leaves what, $4700 for labor? Time for a new mechanic or for you to talk about something you know something about. BTW my original VW clutch is 5 years old and has 140,000 miles on it now.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Elephanthead @ Sep 13 2007, 09:49 AM) [snapback]511901[/snapback]</div>

Which car did you go to the VW dealership to drive, the European only Golf that started this thread or the new 2008 TDI that will be available in 2008? Really, you're pissed because VW didn't have a car that has been announced to be available in March/April of 2008 in the Summer of 2007? :huh:

You expect to pay $5000 to replace a clutch? Boy your mechanic is ripping you off. A clutch costs about $150 to $300 depending on how good of one you get. So that leaves what, $4700 for labor? Time for a new mechanic or for you to talk about something you know something about. BTW my original VW clutch is 5 years old and has 140,000 miles on it now.