1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

University of Florida Student Tasered Into Submission

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by IsrAmeriPrius, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    4,333
    7
    0
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Video: Student Tasered at John Kerry speech

    Whatever happened to freedom of speech at public universities?
     
  2. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,232
    1,563
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Apparently, freedom is just one of those historical concepts people study, rather than something that actually exists.
     
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,193
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I do not know, I don't think the cops were that far out of line.
    The students were allotted a specific amount of time at the mic. He refused to leave when his time was up. They then turned off the mic and he still refused to leave.

    He has a history of being a bit of a troublemaker and resisted the cops when they told him to leave and tried to escort him away...he was pulling away, twisting, yelling and ignoring their instructions. He struck me as out of control.

    Now, was the taser necessary...doubtful. There were what, 6 cops, he was unarmed and at no immediate risk of hurting anyone. I think they could have held him down and cuffed him and carried him out w/o the taser. But perhaps there was some other risk we couldn't see...do not know.
     
  4. thepixiesarah

    thepixiesarah New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2007
    28
    0
    0
    There is no doubt he shouldn't have been arrested...but why on earth did he resist them? If he had gone quietly they probably would not have tased him, and the arrest in itself should have attracted enough attention to this issue.
     
  5. hampdenwireless

    hampdenwireless Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    1,104
    86
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore MD
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Check out the video's of it on youtube.

    He deserved to be tasered after he resisted arrest. The police arrested him reasonably, his reaction was quite bad.
     
  6. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    6,050
    205
    0
    Location:
    S.F. Bay Area
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 18 2007, 07:31 PM) [snapback]514609[/snapback]</div>
    I think the Tasering was an excessive use of force. 1 vs. 6 (or even 4) does not justify being Tasered absent some extenuating circumstance. The latest that I have heard come out of the university's P.D. was that the individual was verbally abusive as a justification for the Tasering....

    Regarding risks to the officers, the event was pretty well documented. I counted at least 3 cameras recording the event in one video that was posted. Depending on the transparency of the investigation, any risk to the officers should come out.

    Regardless, it was a bad day for freedom of speech.
     
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,193
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Let me say this again...this was NOT a violation of anyone's freedom of speach. This was an organized event with specific guidelines for how long each person was allotted to use the mic. This individual HAD HIS TIME but wanted to go over into someone else's time. Had he been allowed to go on ad nauseum other people who wanted to speak would not have had their time and thus THEIR "freedom of speach" would have been infringed.

    Freedom of speach means sensoring of what one has to say is not permitted. It has nothing to do with allowing them to say what ever they want for as long as they want at an organized event such as this.
     
  8. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    6,050
    205
    0
    Location:
    S.F. Bay Area
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 18 2007, 07:53 PM) [snapback]514619[/snapback]</div>
    That sounds like a distinction without a difference. Are you saying that Meyer was Tasered because he would not shut up?
     
  9. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    Violence only escalates until the detainee gets subdued. There is no middle ground, no "nice" answer. What exactly happens if there is no taser? Most of the time there ends up being a lot of blood. Not a good thing in the age of AIDS. This does not register with a lot of people that watch. It absolutely registers with those wrestling with someone whos next move could be to grab a sharp object, grab a gun, or attempt to bite, poke an eye, etc.

    The question remains. What is the better way of handling this? I don't see one.
     
  10. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    6,050
    205
    0
    Location:
    S.F. Bay Area
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Sep 18 2007, 08:08 PM) [snapback]514636[/snapback]</div>
    Ever heard of pepper spray?
     
  11. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,193
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Sep 18 2007, 09:58 PM) [snapback]514627[/snapback]</div>
    Not at all. My point was only to the fact that several have claimed that his right to free speach was infringed.

    My first post in this thread has my view of the tasering.



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Sep 18 2007, 10:10 PM) [snapback]514637[/snapback]</div>
    In a crowded room full of people with several officers restraining him? not a great idea and clearly from someone who doesn't have much experience restraining people.
     
  12. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    6,050
    205
    0
    Location:
    S.F. Bay Area
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 18 2007, 08:51 PM) [snapback]514647[/snapback]</div>
    Perhaps you should re-think your position on restraining people. Two NIJ-funded studies explored the safety and effectiveness of pepper spray in real-life arrests. I am including an excerpt from one study:

    The Effectiveness and Safety of Pepper Spray

    Pepper spray, or oleoresin capsicum (OC), is used by law enforcement and corrections agencies across the United States to help subdue and arrest dangerous, combative, violent, or uncooperative subjects in a wide variety of scenarios. Though generally assumed to be safe and effective, the consequences of the use of OC, as with any use of force, can never be predicted with certainty. The need for reassurance on these points remains. This Research for Practice summarizes the results of two unpublished NIJ-funded studies on the safety and effectiveness of pepper spray in real-life arrests and compares them with previous studies. The goal: to expand the scope of knowledge on this complex subject.

    One study looked at officer and subject injuries in three North Carolina police jurisdictions before and after pepper spray was introduced. The other examined 63 incidents nationwide in which people were sprayed with OC in the arrest process and later died in custody.

    The North Carolina study found that the number of injuries to police officers and suspects decreased after pepper spray was introduced. Complaints that the police used excessive force also declined.
    [Emphasis added.]

    Oh and BTW, Meyer was already on the ground and under control when he was Tasered.
     
  13. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,193
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Sep 18 2007, 11:24 PM) [snapback]514655[/snapback]</div>
    You're displaying some frightening Berman-like tendencies....

    Read my first post in the thread. I did not condone the use of the taser...I waffled a bit admittedly, but you're implying that I suggested it was the best choice in the situation.



    I never suggest that pepper spray was dangerous or ineffective, it clearly has a place and works quite well in appropriate circumstances. My point, which I thought I made quite clearly, was that the use in a crowded confined space with other officers in direct line of fire of the spray made it a poor choice in that situation.
     
  14. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2007
    6,050
    205
    0
    Location:
    S.F. Bay Area
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 18 2007, 10:52 PM) [snapback]514685[/snapback]</div>
    We are getting into the weeds, but there are a variety of pepper spray products that have capabilities ranging from the spray stream that you are referencing to foam agents, close-in spray agents, combination of pepper spray with mace, etc.

    My point is that in this particular circumstance, Tasering was an excessive use of force. Based on everything that I have seen of the incident to date, Meyer is going to have a pretty solid excessive use of force claim.
     
  15. Sufferin' Prius Envy

    Sufferin' Prius Envy Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2004
    3,998
    18
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Sep 18 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]514637[/snapback]</div>
    Yeah . . . it's a good way to clear an entire room, even though you are only trying to subdue one person. <_<

    This is soooooo not a question of an individual's freedom of speech being trampled. There is a major difference between someone respectfully asking a pointed question and someone, like this jerk, hijacking the entire proceedings by going off on a tirade.

    If this were a case of someone's freedom of speech being denied, we may as well not have any politically charged group meetings or discussions which are open to public participation . . . because every single one would end up being disrupted like in this case.

    *Now where is that Hillary in '08 Rally????
    I have some Freedom on Speech microphone time to monopolize >>> AND HOW DARE YOU CONTEMPLATE DISRUPTING ME!!!!!
     
  16. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 18 2007, 10:53 PM) [snapback]514619[/snapback]</div>
    you refer to "what one has to say is not permitted" - who in your humble opinion determines what is and what is not "permitted"? And why could he not say what he wanted to say as long as he conducted himself within the boundries of US Law and his right to speak freely? It is not as though there are administrators of speech that set strict guidelines according to their own fancy or political or personal views.
     
  17. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,193
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Sep 19 2007, 05:29 AM) [snapback]514703[/snapback]</div>
    He can say whatever he wants...within the time granted to him and everyone else who attended the speach.

    again, you need to read more carefully what I say. He was not stopped from saying anything, he was removed b/c he refused to relinquish the mic when his allotted amount of time expired.
     
  18. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Sep 18 2007, 11:08 PM) [snapback]514636[/snapback]</div>
    Before the advent of tasers you advocated what - clubbing till silent? breaking a bone or causing harm or pain to the individual to redirect his attention to his own self-preservation?

    So when club pink or some other whacko group infiltrates a Senate hearing or Presidential address the security forces should:

    1. taser immediately?
    2. beat into submission?

    or

    once they have the "perp" down and surrounded and on the ground controlled by 5 or 6 security guards they should:

    1. show force to instill a fear into others who might also want to employ the freedom of speech in the United States of America?

    Jeez, sounds like Iraq under Saddam or Cuba or NoKo.

    Sounds like you are giving the cops and other security people free reign to act with impugnity. I have an idea for you - you should want out government to easedrop on everyones cell phone calls to see who is planning to "disrupt" public events so we can forewarn the cops.

    What is your policy towards terrorists who actually try to kill innocent US civilians - shoot on sight? Here I think we actually might have some common ground. :)



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 18 2007, 11:51 PM) [snapback]514647[/snapback]</div>
    I would love for you to define in your own words - the right to free speech - as you believe it pertains to citizens of the United States of America.

    And how did you feel when he was shouting - "dont tase me bro" as he was held down by six guards and obvioulsy well subdued --- only to be tased with 50,000 volts of electricity? was that in your opinion justified use of force?

    and if you want, you can tell me your opinion on the use of force in the rodney king case - they of course had the right to beat the shi*t out of him - obviously if you think tasering a defenseless guy who did nothing buy speak his mind in a public forum - who was not running away from the cops and endangering their lives in the process - what degrees of force do you think the cops have in the rodney king case or cases like that when their lives and lives of innocent civilians are put in jeopardy?

    another poster said they have to consider the spilling of blood and the risk of aids - do you think the cops have to take that into account too?
     
  19. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,193
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Wow, and you were saying other people bring up unrelated stuff.... how completely irrelevant and schizophrenically tangential that comment was Dr. B.

    What? Why? I think our law makers and founding fathers have defined that pretty clearly and I'm very much a believer in those laws. Don't you?

    I though, what an idiot, if he'd simply stop resisting they'd walk him out peacefully and ask him to leave the area and not another though would've been given to the otherwise unremarkable incident.


    I commented on my opinion about the use of force in this case in my first post in the thread and I'll refer you there. Rodney King?--again, irrelevant tangent. Use of force is not something easily defined and a wide margine of judgement to those involved must be granted...clearly that means that sometimes excessive force will be used, but hopefully that will be kept in check. The taser of the student in this case seemed unnecessary to me, but I wasn't there and won't draw judgement...it's not like they fired 40 rounds into him or beat him with a club.
    Yes...your point?
     
  20. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 19 2007, 01:52 AM) [snapback]514685[/snapback]</div>
    Why the personal attack Evan? Is it appropriate on this BB to attack people. Is that your freedom of speech thing you are exercising? I dont think the guy who got tasered insulted Mr. kerry the way you just insulted me.

    Jeez, I did NOT even make one post here, and you let me have it between the eyes - in fact i was probably sleeping at the time you attacked me here. At least John Kerry was awake and could have answered this poor guy - if he had the chance to - before those who ruled his speach was out of "line" beat him to the ground with a 6 to 1 advantage and then tasered him while he was FACE DOWN on the ground with his hands behind his back.

    Who watches those who watch others? Who sets the rules? Are the rules applicable to all or just to some? Are personal attacks allowed on this BB? Or do just some priviledged few make the rules of speach here and get the right to operate outside the guidelines they set for others??

    This does not seem like very liberal thought or behavior to me.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 19 2007, 01:52 AM) [snapback]514685[/snapback]</div>

    Why the personal attack Evan? Is it appropriate on this BB to attack people. Is that your freedom of speech thing you are exercising? I dont think the guy who got tasered insulted Mr. kerry the way you just insulted me.

    Jeez, I did NOT even make one post here, and you let me have it between the eyes - in fact i was probably sleeping at the time you attacked me here. At least John Kerry was awake and could have answered this poor guy - if he had the chance to - before those who ruled his speach was out of "line" beat him to the ground with a 6 to 1 advantage and then tasered him while he was FACE DOWN on the ground with his hands behind his back.

    Who watches those who watch others? Who sets the rules? Are the rules applicable to all or just to some? Are personal attacks allowed on this BB? Or do just some priviledged few make the rules of speach here and get the right to operate outside the guidelines they set for others??

    This does not seem like very liberal thought or behavior to me.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 19 2007, 06:52 AM) [snapback]514708[/snapback]</div>
    So tell me, where did he violate his freedom of speech guarantee as provided for in the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution?