1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

An Excellent Puzzle

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by airportkid, Sep 30, 2007.

  1. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    2,191
    538
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    A friend of mine of scientific mind wanted to invent a puzzle where possession of a fine chronograph, but nothing else, would be the key to its solution, so he rang me up and we settled on a kidnapping/desert island scenario as having the greatest promise for a chronograph to be the hero of the puzzle, only, as we honed the puzzle to plausibility and perfection, the chronograph became utterly superfluous. So we took it out of the puzzle, and left the victim truly stranded, but with a superbly elegant escape. Here it is. See if you can find the solution:

    It is a dark and stormy night in Detroit in the dead of Winter. You're the son (or daughter) of a wealthy celebrity with intelligent friends, and everything goes suddenly blank when you're blackjacked on the back of the head and kidnapped. When you come to, it is still night, but the weather is tropical, and the stars crowd a cloudless sky from horizon to horizon. You struggle to sit upright on bare sand, less than a hundred feet away from a shore washed by a gentle surf. In front of you, a dark figure looms, and drops something blocky and heavy at your feet.

    "That's a satellite phone," the figure says, his voice hard but calm. "Wait 'till daylight, then call your family; prove you're alive. You went missing two days ago. Be brief; there're only about 60 seconds of battery - not enough time to get a fix on you." The figure pauses to light a cigarette, then continues. "We left you some water and sanwiches," he says, gesturing to a small paper sack a few feet away. "If we collect our ransom, we'll come back and take you to an airport. If we don't, there are no second helpings. Any questions?"

    "How much?" You ask weakly.

    "Eight million."

    "More than my allowance. Where are we?"

    "A long way from Detroit. There isn't so much as a boat dock within a hundred miles."

    "I can't swim anyway."

    "We know."

    Without another word, the figure turns away and pushes off into the surf in a small motor skiff. A mile offshore, barely discernible in the darkness, the blacked out hull of a larger vessel eclipses the stars near the horizon, and the wake of the fast disappearing motor skiff casts a faint phosphorescent arrow straight toward it. Less than an hour later the skiff and its mother ship have vanished.

    You quickly assess your situation. The island you're on is completely featureless, flat, and less than a mile in both width and breadth. Bits of seaweed are its sole vegetation. You too are similarly stripped; the kidnappers left you clothed in light shorts and shirt, pockets empty, your watch and other jewelry gone. They did leave you a baseball cap for protection against the sun when daylight arrives. The bag of water and sandwiches is enough to last only a few days, if rationed.

    Your family has the resources to rescue you if you could communicate your location, but there's no way for you to determine that. You never took any interest in astronomy, for example, so the pattern of the stars is as meaningless to you as the pattern of waves against the beach.

    But before sunrise you realize you CAN communicate your location, and with precision, without ever knowing yourself where you are. And the 60 seconds of satellite telephone time is ample. What do you do?
     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,191
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Hmmmmm.... Looks like I need to read this one a few times...not that that'll bring me any closer to solving it.

    Ok, the longitude could be determined closely by the moment of sunrise.
    Thinking about latitude....
     
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,191
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Is it safe to assume he can't find the North star? If he can then latitude can be determined by measuring the height above the horizon and that angle is the latitude in the Northern hemisphere. But we don't know that he's in the northern hemisphere....must be something else.
    Do we need to know anything about how a sat phone works here to figure this out? It has to communicate with the satellites, obviously, but I don't know if it shows Lat and Long on the screen or not. You didn't give any clues that would suggest a way to block the antenna to use that to determine whether the satellites are to the North or South of him.
     
  4. brick

    brick Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2006
    1,083
    78
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 30 2007, 07:44 AM) [snapback]519366[/snapback]</div>
    It's winter in Detroit, so just make one call (less than 30s) at precisely sunrise and another sub-30s call at precisely sunset. The length of the day will ball-park the lattitude, the time of the calls the longitude.

    Good thing it's not an equinox.
     
  5. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    19,891
    1,191
    9
    Location:
    Nixa, MO
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brick @ Sep 30 2007, 08:22 AM) [snapback]519380[/snapback]</div>
    But wouldn't that just put you in a time-zone? And how would you know the time where the call was made, you'd only have the time where it was recieved.
     
  6. Tyrin

    Tyrin New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    272
    0
    0
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brick @ Sep 30 2007, 08:22 AM) [snapback]519380[/snapback]</div>
    That's a good answer. I was thinking it had something to do with the phosphorescent arrow glow in the wake of the ship, which probably signals a coral reef? But I'm not sure how exactly it would help. Still, it's an unnecessary detail otherwise, which in a riddle usually signifies a clue.
     
  7. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    I would cheat. I would make a quick (less than 20 sec) phone call to someone I trust telling them that I would be calling again in few hours at sunrise and have a GPS clock handy. I would also tell them if the phone company can locate the phone on the next call they get 1 million.

    After the first phone call, locate Polaris and make two markers to point to north. Make a compass rose from this set of markers.

    Then on the final call at sunrise, when the lower limb of the sun just clears the horizon, mark the time over the phone and azimuth of the sun rising. The phone company will make sure they get the money (unless they were the kidnappers.)
     
  8. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Sep 30 2007, 06:36 AM) [snapback]519387[/snapback]</div>
    We were told the victim knows nothing of astronomy, so could not locate Polaris. And as pointed out already, might not even be where Polaris is visible. Also, we were told that there is not enough time to get a fix.

    I think Brick's answer is the right one.
     
  9. EricGo

    EricGo New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2005
    1,805
    0
    0
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM (SouthWest US)
    The longitude occurred to me too; my baseball cap off to brick for figuring out the latitude.
     
  10. brick

    brick Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2006
    1,083
    78
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Sep 30 2007, 09:27 AM) [snapback]519382[/snapback]</div>
    The smart friends on the other end can figure it out. They can just look at their own clocks, and all you have to do is tell them that it's precisely dawn or dusk where you are at that moment. The beauty of the sun is that it knows no time zones.
     
  11. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    2,191
    538
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Congrats to Brick, he (she?) nailed it beautifully, and quickly too!

    No one we've ever presented this puzzle to has ever gotten it without lots of mental nudging, so Brick's rapid, complete answer deserves a prize. Next time you're out SFO way an airplane ride and a beer are on me.

    The only two days of the year the victim would be screwed are the equinoxes, so that's why it's set in deep Winter. The sunrise sunset calls do indeed fix longitude, but more important, they describe great circle arcs that intersect. The time interval between calls fixes latitude, a third great circle arc that forms a small triangle of intersection with the sunrise sunset arcs. The victim is inside that triangle.

    Other details like the wake and the baseball cap are the standard red herrings stashed in any puzzle, to keep you guessing as to what's really important and what's chaff.

    Good job Brick!

    MB
     
  12. brick

    brick Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2006
    1,083
    78
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Wohoo!

    Now here's the real puzzle: If actually placed in that situation, would any of us actually figure that out before frantically calling for help and using up the sat phone battery? I'm not convinced I would have.
     
  13. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    15,232
    1,562
    0
    Location:
    off into the sunset
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Any time I find myself in one of these disaster scenarios, I realise I must be dreaming, and put on my rocket boots. :)
     
  14. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brick @ Sep 30 2007, 10:49 AM) [snapback]519492[/snapback]</div>
    The other real-life problem is that the sat phone has only 60 seconds of battery, and that is being depleted as the phone on the other end is ringing. If the friends take 61 seconds to answer the phone, the sat phone will be dead before they answer.

    Also, if the phone at the other end is busy, 60 seconds might not be enough time to get a call through, and it may be well past sunrise/sunset by the time the call does get through. A few minutes difference would throw the rescuers off by many miles.

    It's a great puzzle. But if it ever really happened, the victim would probably be dead.
     
  15. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    5,122
    268
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 30 2007, 05:13 PM) [snapback]519574[/snapback]</div>
    Thats why you call a cell phone. If it's busy or turned off, it automatically goes to voicemail. Plus, most of them have a sub-30 second ring before switching to voicemail.

    and the mailbox will have a timestamp of the phonecall, accurate within a minute.
     
  16. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    Not so fast on finding north requiring knowledge of astronomy or constellations. Now for puzzle part II. How did the person on the island find north knowing no constellations?
     
  17. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    2,191
    538
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco Bay Area CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FL_Prius_Driver @ Oct 1 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]520124[/snapback]</div>
    One of our original answers was considerably convoluted and involved ascertaining which side of the equator the island was on (and other complicated gyrations I won't get into but are surely why Tom and Ray rejected the puzzle when first sent to them). Identifying north or south hemisphere is simple: your shadow points to the hemisphere you're in. Stand facing a rising sun and you're facing east. Stand long enough for your shadow to angle away from an east-west line and where it points is the hemisphere you occupy.

    Fixing north or south is simply a matter of watching your shadow shrink (our original answer involved poking holes in the sand at the extremities of a water bottle's shadow throughout the course of the day) - where it's at its smallest is its north-south orientation.

    I wish I could claim credit for the elegant answer Brick so succinctly identified, but alas, my mind is not so nimble. We were presenting the puzzle and our original answer proudly to a colleague, who listened patiently at first, but finally, exasperated, asked why the hell not just make two phone calls and save a whole lot of useless futzing around? He was absolutely correct, of course, which is why the correct answer is so elegant.

    Mark Baird
    Alameda CA
     
  18. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    To find north at night, lay down and look straight up. Position yourself such that the stars go from left to right exactly. Us a string and a couple of sticks if necessary (you have 8 millon dollars of motivation.) Once you have the left to right star movement pure left to right, your head is pointing straight north.
     
  19. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    6,038
    707
    0
    Location:
    Tumwater, WA USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I would call at exactly sunrise... then again at noon, and tell someone how long the shadows are (like, a 10" tall bottle). That should fix long. and lat.