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Classic Prius 2002 won't run

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by pigwot, Oct 26, 2007.

  1. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    Wife's Prius failed to start twice, with warning symbol on main display. Read a lot of posts here and determned it was likely the 12 v auxiliary battery. Almost 5 years was a good life for a 12v battery! So I purchased the Mazda Miata glass mat, sealed battery and altered the cable ends to fit. Installed it in the Prius. Started car and warning triangle is on main display and MFD shows car with exclamation mark. ICE ran for about 20 seconds and died. Disconnected battery and used trickle charger to make sure it was up to a full charge. Reinstalled and started car: all displays looked 'normal' and it ran for about a minute and then died, with prior warning symbols appearing. Knocking off for the night. What else should I check? Does the Classic have a "Ready" position, as I've read about here? Thanks in advance for the help.
     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I'm betting this is NOT a 12v battery problem. Similar issues have been reported with a sticky throttle body and the problems resolved with a cleaning, but the potential list is long and a reading of your codes would help narrow the list quickly.
     
  3. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    Evan,
    I could clean the throttle body once the rain lets up; been a bit torrential here the past few days. Anyone on this forum live in Northern Delaware and have a Scangauge?

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 27 2007, 08:55 AM) [snapback]531142[/snapback]</div>
     
  4. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    Did you make sure the new 12V was actually *charged*? Hang a
    voltmeter off the power-outlet or something and see what happens
    as you boot up...
    .
    You can also go up front with power off and try to open the throttle
    flap by hand, using the spring assembly on the pax side of the body.
    Try closing it all the way [since it defaults to a slightly more open
    position] and see if it feels sticky when you go to re-open.
    .
    Did you get any pix of your 12V terminal mod, or have any more
    specifics on what you did?
    .
    _H*
     
  5. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pigwot @ Oct 27 2007, 09:52 AM) [snapback]531172[/snapback]</div>
    See this thread:
    http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=4...mp;#entry531246
     
  6. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hobbit @ Oct 27 2007, 01:07 PM) [snapback]531215[/snapback]</div>
    Pics of the adaptation are at:
    http://www.whizbark.com/~pgwhiz/Prius/

    When I installed the new 12v the MFD check showed from 13.5v to 13.8v. Started the car and it ran for a short time as stated above. Went in not long after that due to heavy rain (no garage) and when I came back out, tuned key to accessory position (?) and entered screen and it read only 11.9v !
    I just got back to it now, disconnected the battery and have it on a trickle charger. Once it is topped off I'll reinstall it and see what happens.
    The throttle flap opens and returns to its nearly-closed position, moving freely and with a crisp click upon hitting its closed position stop. No 'stickiness' felt moving it through very slight additional range to fully-closed (not much movement noted though, how many degrees of arc should I expect?).
     
  7. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    When it did run for that short period of time the normal MFD screen was showing for a very short while and then the cautionary symbols all popped back up. I'll have to get a Scangauge II to get codes I guess...
     
  8. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    Update: So, with the key in the ACC position, the MFD display of 13.5+v must have been the main battery topping up the 12v battery. Trickle charged today while at work, replaced in car, and now shows charge at terminals 12.9v, even 12.2v when starting, dome light doesn't dim, starts right up, then 'stumbles' after about 20 seconds of running and quits. MFD shows voltage at 11.9v - checked connections, all secure and no corrosion.
    Only warning lights on are the car with exclamation mark and the red triangle. Still looking for an OBD II scanner to borrow. Gas tank is full, but fuel gauge is flashing final bar...any idea how to handle that? Some posts have said you need to add fuel, but I just filled tank before this started. Brake pedal was mushy; held it down with key on and could hear pump running, pedal resistance returned to normal.
    Anything else I can do at this point in time?
     
  9. vincent1449p

    vincent1449p Active Member

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    If your ICE can ran for about 20 secs., the Aux. battery is probably not the problem since it can already switch on the ECUs and the SMRs to the HV battery for MG1 to crank the ICE. Your problem is more on "Engine does not start".

    There is another post quite similar to yours:

    Help----02 Prius won't run.

    Some similarities:
    1. Engine starts briefly then stops.
    2. Fuel gauge is wrong, fuel tank is full but gauge showing empty.
    As others have mentioned, the codes are required to narrow down your problem.
     
  10. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    Okay, borrowed a gauge and the only code is P3191. Looked that up and it said:

    "P3191 means the "engine did not start".

    TSB EG050-04 also discusses: December 20, 2004. ENGINE OIL SPECIFICATIONS. 2001-2005 Prius. (Incorrect engine oil viscosity or improper fill level may result in a M.I.L. "ON" condition (most common Diagnostic Trouble Code P3191 "Engine does not start"). Use SAE 5W-30 API grade SL "Energy Conserving" oil and use proper fill quantity.)

    Wife did her oil change recently with Castrol 5w30SL, a new filter and only added 3.5 qts of oil, and after driving to work and back checked dipstick level - it's a tad bit below the full mark. Doubt that is the problem.

    Reset check engine light and cleared code. Started it and it did the same thing. Only difference is the gas gauge now reads 'full'.
     
  11. vincent1449p

    vincent1449p Active Member

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    Have you look at TSB EG011-03? The ECM and Fuel Tank may not be able to check by yourself, the Circuit Opening Relay can be DIY.
    [attachmentid=12271][attachmentid=12270]
     

    Attached Files:

  12. statultra

    statultra uber-Senior Member

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    also check the throttle body for any physical problems, i recieved this error on my prius after a throttle position sensor was damaged, i urge you to not run the vehicle often in this state, on my prius i had p3191 plus another code i forgot what it was, and it managed to drain the hv battery after a couple of starts.
     
  13. Bear68

    Bear68 Member

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    Best suggestion is to start with a circuit opening relay. It controls the fuel pump directly and without the ICE running the ECU will simply shut down the whole system.
     
  14. turboj91

    turboj91 Junior Member

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    My 02 is capable of the same problem. Started before last winter when the weather started getting colder. ICE would start immediately as usual, run for 10-15 seconds and then stall. Stalled very rough like it ran out of gas. The triangle and another light were on on the dash. After turning off the key and waiting about 10 seconds, the ICE would restart but then stall exactly like before. I found that if you got the ICE started and then immediately put it in drive and accelerated enough to get the ICE past the idle circut (got the revs up) the ICE ran fine and did not continue to stall - until you shut it off again. Seemed that if it was warm outside, the problem was only once in the morning of if you let the car sit for many hours and it completely cooled. The problem became worse in frequency and started to stall all the time if you did not get the revs up. Getting the revs up even if it was for 10 feet was enough to circumvent whatever the issue was with the stalling. I started backing into the driveway and hit the gas quickly and then sat to allow some warm up time.

    To be noted, when the problem first occured, the dash lights would stay on for a while and then eventually go out when the car was restarted (please note that for my job I might be in and out of the car as much as 20+ times a day) and not be allowed to stall.

    I also noticed that during the day as I was in and out of the car, if when the ICE started, it cycled to a high idle rpm and then settled down, it would not stall. If I started the ICE and then clicked reverse, the engine would be at a low rpm and would stall.

    Recently I have found out that if I start the ICE then click neutral, it never stalls and no dash lights. I let it idle in neutral for a few seconds and then I click reverse to get out of the garage.
    Never since this problem started has the car behaved less than perfect (besides the obvious). It always idles perfect, accelerates fine, the mileage has not suffered nor has battery performance been any less.
    For those wondering why I have not persued having the problem fixed, I went to a local dealer one day to have it scanned but they advised they were not able to obtain any codes. By the time I had gotten to the dealer that day, the dash lights had gone out. They suggested that I leave the car for an overnight so they could start it cold with the scanner ready to go. Have not done that. Since this issue started I have been building a new home complete with a 2400 sq ft garage with radiant heat. That seemed to take priority and either getting the revs up or now clicking neutral was an easy cure. Besides, I wanted to learn more about the car in general before I took the work of a mechanic that I did not personally know or trust. The local dealer does not have the best service reputation.
     
  15. jk450

    jk450 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bear68 @ Nov 1 2007, 09:02 PM) [snapback]533642[/snapback]</div>
    Slight edit: "start by CHECKING the operation of the circuit opening relay" (rather than automatically replacing it)
     
  16. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    Well, I was getting no where with it, so I had it towed in to the dealer...sigh...
    ...the service writer called about 10:00am and informed me that the ECM was bad and that was under warranty, but replacing it had made no difference - it still wouldn't run. I asked what codes were found, as my small code scanner only came up with P3191. He did not know and said the technician was working on it. At 3pm he called back to say they had been on the phone with Toyota tech support for hours and they had determined there was "oil in the intake".
    I said, well, tell me how that might have happened, as we change the filter with every oil change and add no more than 3.5 qts of 5w30 Castrol SL, and if he'd like to see the other half quart it was still in the garage with a blue "X" marked on the cap of the bottle. Our Prius has never needed any oil between changes that are done every 3,500 miles (I know, we could go 10,000 like they do in Europe).
    He said he did not know what else could cause oil in the intake, but that it wasn't a warranty item and would cost $320 to take it apart and clean out the oil and re-assemble it. He said even then it might not run.
    I assured him the oil was _never_ overfilled and that was not an acceptable diagnosis unless he could provide a plausible scenario for oil in the intake. I also questioned how he could say it wasn't under warranty when it may not make any difference in whether it would run or not. In other words, if you choose to do something which has no bearing on solving the actual problem that he was freely choosing to undergo such 'repairs' at his own risk. I asked for the codes they got from the THHT and he said, "P1390(sic), P1391(sic), P3101, and C1259. (I guess he meant P3190 and P3191).
    So I point out that the HV ECU (hybrid vehicle electronic control unit) sets the P3101, engine system malfunction. The ABS ECU (anti-lock brake system ECU) sets a C1259, HV system regen malfunction. And the CCS ECU (cruise control system) says, "me too" with a P3101 code. The TSB says to chase down any other codes before beginning to work on the P3191 & P3101; however, there is no need to look into the ABS's C1259, as it is caused by ICE failing to start. In other words, what other code aren't you telling me about, or is this a TSB EG011-03 situation? (My thanks to other forum members who provided that synopsis)
    The poor fellow wasn't sure what to do with me then and asked if it would be okay if they set it aside and started in again on Monday. I pointed out I was not pressuring them to complete repairs in any time frame and had told them to take what time was needed for a 'proper' diagnosis. He seemed quite relieved to be getting off the phone.
     
  17. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pigwot @ Nov 3 2007, 12:11 AM) [snapback]534213[/snapback]</div>
    as would i.... :blink:

    ok first that TB cleaning is amazingly high priced. wow. they don't need to disassemble it to clean it out.

    but... that particular code just seems to come and go for no particular reason and nobody knows how or why. don't heap crap on the poor guy for it.

    oil in the intake is something that can be visibly verified. it's not up to them to tell you how it got there but if it's there it's there. but they can't prove that it's your fault it's there either, so they should be covering that under powertrain warranty if you're still under that one. unfortunately it is not covered beyond 5 yr/60k.
     
  18. pigwot

    pigwot Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Nov 3 2007, 12:32 AM) [snapback]534215[/snapback]</div>
    Galaxee,
    Your point is well-taken. On a rational level I do understand that cars really are much more complicated today than when I was rebuilding them, and that my bias is unfair. I'm annoyed at how few well-rounded, knowledgeable 'mechanics' there are in the auto repair industry, and how many 'technicians' simply unplug and plug in components until something works.
    I believe Toyota needs to stand behind these phantom P3190/P3191 code situations that cost their dealers untold hours. I feel like the dealers are left to invent 'needed solutions' they can charge for to make ends meet. Why tear down the entire intake to do a TB cleaning? His answer was "We have been on the phone with Toyota and that is what they said we must do".
    Will update this on Monday...
     
  19. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    hmm.
    toyota's tech support knows that is not a viable fix for that problem... hence the disclaimer on whether it would actually fix your car.

    they would love to stand behind those phantom codes but even they don't have much of a grasp on them. it's a huge frustration.

    your point about techs is sad but true. the dealership here dumped their best brain on the street because he wasn't profitable enough with a bad back. it's about getting stuff in and out, and less about getting it right. sadn but true.
     
  20. Bear68

    Bear68 Member

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    Just my two cents worth here.... and only the opinion of someone who hasn't even seen the car and may be making a complete jackass of himself by diagnosing over the web but........ I still think you have the symptoms of the EG 011-03 TSB... A quick check for the circuit opening relay is to see if the horn relay or another less used relay is the same type and swap them. Remember that the C Open relay controls the fuel pump which integrated in the fuel tank. That seems to be the reason they had the TSB recommending a tank, the relay and possibly the ECM. The dealer you are working with seems to have been trying to save themselves a headache by slapping in an ECM under warranty (Federal Emissions Warranty- ECM is 8yr 80k miles) and keeping their fingers crossed. If it had worked, they would have seen a "problem child" car go out the door and the tech could have gone back to the timing belt and 60k serv he really wanted to work on and make some money. Diagnostic work on a Hybrid doesn't earn big pay when you can't be sure whats really going on and even on the first gen Prii Toyota still plays it close to the chest on they technological secrets.

    Just please bear in mind, techs and service advisors are people too. We are human and make mistakes. for my part, I simply go into work each day attempting to do the best I can to figure out the "problem children" and then find some nice, simple, big paying maintenance type job to do next which will give me a reasonable paycheck.

    Flat rate can be a real pain.