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The Eastern Garbage Patch - twice the size of Texas, between Here and Hawai'i

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Pinto Girl, Oct 29, 2007.

  1. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    So, I just saw the article in the SF Chronicle this weekend, which made a reference to the "Great Pacific Garbage Patch."

    http://science.howstuffworks.com/great-pac...rbage-patch.htm

    http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-great-...rbage-patch.htm

    http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/3724/P...astics-Part-One

    I'm absolutely shocked. Honestly, I was expecting a big pile of trash floating around out there...what if I sailed into it on a crossing to the islands?...actually, it's not nearly that visible.

    But it's not as benign as a pile of bottles floating placidly, either.

    Apparently, what's going on is, plastics are accumulating out there due to atmospheric and tidal forces...the sun and waves break them down...half of it sinks, half of it floats, but in smaller and smaller pieces...

    ...here's what I didn't realize about plastics: they repel water but tend to accumulate oil and other toxins, due to their relatively unstable molecular composition. So, as this stuff is breaking down out there, it's also accumulating other toxins as well...

    ..as you might imagine, marine life of all sizes and complexity mistake it for dinner and feed on this stuff...we eat that marine life...and the water bottle ITSELF (which supposedly contained a fluid that will keep us healthy) ends up in our food, as a toxin.

    Sweet.

    Apparently, this conglomeration has been growing since *1950!!!*
    [gulp]

    One other thing: apparently the raw plastic pellets used by manufacturers to mold plastic products also fall off of railway cars, etc., and (via stormdrains) end up here, too.

    As one scientist remarked when they were sailing through it, "We don't go shopping anymore, we just wait for things to float by."

    Here's something else: Living things in the area are evolving in unusual ways. For example, an odd sort of underwater cockroach of gigantic proportions.

    [attachmentid=12241]

    P.S. a recent study indicated that there was, by weight, 10-15 times as much plastic in the water, as there was phytoplankton. Also, there is, with current technology, no way to *ever* clean it up...even if we stopped using ALL plastics today.

    And, on that pleasant note...a happy beginning of the week to us all!
     

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  2. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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  3. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    My DH was in the Navy, on a supply ship.
    He told me that as part of the daily life onboard, heaving the refuse over the side was commonplace.
    They broke all the flourescent tubes so they would sink. yes, with the mercury in them (they had to wear face masks).
    Supply ships don't have a lot of people on them. Can't even imagine the amount of trash, refuse, garbage, etc., being dumped by carriers (population equals some cities)?
    This has been going on for centuries.

    Then, of course, there is the Atlantic, with all the ships' refuse, the garbage scows, the medical waste, etc.

    Oh, and the plankton? Whales eat that, along with other marine mammals. This could be one of the reason so many marine mammals are beaching, dying, appearing emaciated, etc.

    Yes, six-pack rings kill. Even if you cut the rings, they can still kill. They are killing all of us.
     
  4. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    To twist a phrase, "out of sight, out of mind" seems to apply to humanity in general.

    If we are ever to evolve into an intelligent race, we must throw out the notion that there's any such thing as garbage.
     
  5. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

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    Pinto this rotating pile of refuse is common knowledge to sailors. One must navigate around the mess or risk getting debris caught in propellers and other ships' underwater protrusions. In one perverse sense, it's good there is a whirlpool effect to catch the trash or else it would be more evenly distributed over the whole Pacific. You can find all sorts of interesting debris on isolated beaches including North and South Beaches on Point Reyes. To my simple mind, it seems like enlisting a commercial trawler to trawl the pool with their miles-long nets would at least reduce the stuff still floating. Speaking of hazards to navigation, trying to boat around these nets when they are deployed is one of the major pains in the neck with long distance sailing.
     
  6. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 29 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]532140[/snapback]</div>
    You sound remarkably complacent about all of this; I'm a bit surprised, honestly.

    -----

    The documentary short I happened to view said that 20% of plastic pollution comes from ships(!!) and the other 80% is from land-based sources.

    Considering how few people must be on those ships, 20% does seem a bit extreme.

    What makes it worst is that plastics, themselves, attract other toxins as they float there and get broken into smaller and smaller pieces of plastic...the way they aggregate lots of nasty stuff and pass it quickly back up into the food chain is unique to this material. That's the problem.

    The basic instability of the chemical compound itself.

    I think it's this aspect of it ---the way the plastic attracts all kinds of toxins as it floats there, and then quickly reintroduces them into marine life, even directly to marine animals occupying high levels of the food chain--- that is particularly nasty and what I wasn't aware of.

    -----

    I have to say, I'm a bit surprised that few people here have replied, and that there hasn't been more...well...outcry.

    I'm just beginning to realize that we can never throw anything away. EVER. It's all still here with us. I know that sounds naive, but it's my little sick-day realization; I'm going to indulge myself in thinking about how it might have an effect on me.
     
  7. SSimon

    SSimon Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 30 2007, 05:35 PM) [snapback]532586[/snapback]</div>
    Notwithstanding the consequences to our food supply, I think it should go without saying that this coagulation of trash should serve as just one more example that we should start weighing the broad implications of our actions. Have I said it enough on this forum that we would not have an existence without biodiversity? When are we going to get our heads out of our arses and finally regard this fact? If nothing else matters, surely our very existence must.

    When I read this yesterday it occurred to me that I now have to be concerned with the potential that we'll start to view our oceans as deliberate waste receptacles. We seem to have such little regard for the land that we live on, it seems quite logical that we wouldn't take issue with polluting our surrounding waters. And since we're considering storing our nuclear waste there, why not just put all of our trash there too.

    I did some poking around yesterday as I continue to hear about various state's positions that they foresee problems with adequately managing their waste within their borders. Something positive did arise from this poking around. It seems that they're investigating injections of fluids and air into trash dumps to speed up decomposition. Kinda like what's going on in my new compost heap in my backyard.
     
  8. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Oct 30 2007, 09:34 AM) [snapback]532463[/snapback]</div>
    But where would they put it?
     
  9. samiam

    samiam Antipodean Prius Poster

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2007, 10:35 AM) [snapback]532586[/snapback]</div>
    I agree completely P-G, but could it be a kind of crisisfatigue?
    Silent Spring and Love Canal were BIG news, they led to all kinds of public action and legislative initiatives like clean air and water acts, epa, superfund etc etc. (you could debate their ultimate effectiveness of course).

    By the time we get to the melting ice caps and giant garbage patches of today, we are just so desensitised by the commercial news media hitting us with daily disasters that most people don't even get an increase in heart rate.

    Its hard for most people to separate out what's important to what's been overblown just for the purpose of generating another headline between the commercial messages.

    Not saying that this one is overblown in the least, just that some crises have been in the past and it can be hard to tell sometimes.

    As to where to put the heap, maybe if we compressed it, we could put it in the next presidential library.
     
  10. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 30 2007, 02:35 PM) [snapback]532586[/snapback]</div>
    Oh, I'm not complacent. Stunned is more the term. that and really, really, frickin' mad.
    There is not a bit of our world that hasn't been raped, poisoned, or damaged by people, usually for some sort of financial/political gain.
    Using the oceans as a cesspool sickens me.

    I just try to present facts calmly, so that I'm not blown off as a reactionary treehugger enviro type.

    I wish all the reactionary treehugger enviro types WOULD start working together, though... and I'll be there.
     
  11. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(samiam @ Oct 30 2007, 08:25 PM) [snapback]532686[/snapback]</div>
    You know, I think you're right about 'crisis fatigue.' Honestly, I'm laid up sick right now and have waaaaay too much time on my hands to think about stuff.
    :)

    For some reason, this particular thing really impacted me, and I'm still trying to figure out why; that, too, in itself is intriguing to me.

    ---------------------

    Kind of free-associating...I've for quite some time felt that there was one or perhaps a few primary environmental factors of our own creation which could increase significantly the occurrence of mutative diseases...plastic being right there at the top of the list. (I also have this thing about radio waves and potentially the electrical systems in cars, but I'll keep that to myself).

    I mean, the way it can so quickly taint the taste of a beverage; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to wonder what, exactly, might be causing that taste, and how bad it must be for me.

    Same goes with that foggy film on the windows of vehicles (don't see it much anymore on cars, but it can still happen in boats and some RV's) from the offgassing of the plastics and petroleum-based adhesives used to put the interior together. Ever been to a boat show? Smelly!!

    I know I'm probably coming off as really naive now, but I did a bit more research and happened on a group that was saving EVERY piece of plastic trash their small office generated for a YEAR! Even after a month, apparently, it was surprising how much there was.

    I'm thinking about doing this for at least a week, just to see. And I'll tell you this, I will no longer make a habit of buying water in those little bottles. I mean, that's not asking too much, is it?

    Now I wander around the home improvement store or discount mall and all I see is plastic:

    Plastic that looks like wood
    Plastic that looks like metal
    Plastic that looks like stone
    Plastic that looks like glass
    Plastic that looks like like everything...but plastic.

    And it will ALWAYS be plastic...maybe in microscopic pieces, but still plastic. It's creeping me out, and I'm beginning to think that my theories of us poisoning ourselves may not be as far off as I'd like them to be.

    Okay, [ahem] so I'll take a pill and go back to bed!
    [laughing]

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 30 2007, 09:31 PM) [snapback]532715[/snapback]</div>
    [taking a breath] I agree...at least, in theory!!
    :)

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 30 2007, 09:31 PM) [snapback]532715[/snapback]</div>
    [sigh] I feel like, some folks believe the very act of working together (processes, rules, etc.) removes them from their grassroots heritage...and that, automatically, implies that one has sold out and is becoming part of the establishment they're fighting...(??) It's an odd dynamic.

    On the other hand, lots of things which were strange are now familiar...maybe even some of the most out-there groups and causes are still part of this process...?



    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 30 2007, 08:12 PM) [snapback]532679[/snapback]</div>
    Maybe we could spread plastic all over the ocean so it absorbs all the toxins, then sweep it all up and bury it in some salt dome in Nevada...?
    [laughing, guardedly]

    This goes along with my other idea: put a big plastic bag on top of my car with a tube going to the exhaust pipe...and when it gets full of pollutants, I'd just take it off and throw it away!!

    -----------------------------------------

    [attachmentid=12241]

    Is it just me, or does anyone else want to touch the very center of this, just to see what it feels like?
     
  12. fshagan

    fshagan Senior Member

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    I'm surprised at the size of this swirling pool of debris. It does argue for much more effort to package things in paper, wood, and starch-based polymers that degrade into ... well, starch.

    Suddenly, burying all our trash doesn't seem that backward to me now.
     
  13. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 30 2007, 07:55 PM) [snapback]532720[/snapback]</div>
    Heck no, I want to throw it into a pot of boiling water! :D

    Regarding the garbage. I had read about this 2 years ago then a club member wrote a short paper on the subject a couple weeks ago and it renewed my interest in the subject. It is really amazing that we throw so much away. :(

    The LA Times has a few neat videos on Ocean problems. Here is the link, just search around for the video link.
     
  14. Renocat

    Renocat Member

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    Why no pictures? How come we can't see it on Google Earth?
     
  15. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Oct 30 2007, 08:45 PM) [snapback]532743[/snapback]</div>
    Actually, that whole series, with photos and videos, is very good. Very sobering.
     
  16. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Oct 31 2007, 06:59 AM) [snapback]532876[/snapback]</div>
    I thought so too. :)

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renocat @ Oct 31 2007, 06:16 AM) [snapback]532861[/snapback]</div>
    Go to my links and watch the videos. :)
     
  17. Renocat

    Renocat Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Oct 31 2007, 10:03 AM) [snapback]532879[/snapback]</div>
    I did watch a couple...I want to see an overhead shot of the garbage patch..maybe I missed it?
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The process of converting biomass into fuel oil (pyrolysis?) can be used on plastics too. Then you can burn it or make more plastics.
     
  19. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Renocat @ Oct 31 2007, 08:16 AM) [snapback]532861[/snapback]</div>
    You know, that was my first thought, too...if it's so big, why no pictures of it?

    As it turns out, the concentration of things that still look like they did when they were manufactured isn't that great. What's happened is, by the time lots of this stuff has gotten there, it's traveled thousands of miles.

    During that time, the sun and waves break everything into smaller and smaller pieces; by the time it all accumulates here most of it is already teeny-tiny.

    Not only that, but the patch doesn't just exist on the surface; it actually extends way, way below ; they said that only 1/2 of the plastic will float at or near the top.

    What's really telling is that the amount of plastic, by weight, is 10-15 times as great as the amount of phytoplankton in the water. Which means that the organisms in this area are eating 10-15 times as much plastic --and with it, all the toxins it's collected-- than they are food!!!

    It's a giant waste sink for all the toxins that get into the ocean...and they're all accumulated in areas like these, via little bits of plastic, which collect them as they go.

    Let me see if I can find the video I stumbled upon; it was these eight people in a sailboat who went out there as volunteers and took all kinds of water samples for study back on shore. It was some of these water samples which "did" it to me, actually...yikes!!
    :-(

    --------------------

    I read, somewhere else, that future generations digging down through the strata of the ground will always be able to tell when they've reached our time; by then the plastic will have degraded into a toxic dust that will be embedded with every remnant of what our world was.

    This will be our legacy, after all the big buildings and bridges and whatnot have been gone for so long, it will be like they never existed at all. It's conceivable that plastic will outlast even Democracy and Freedom.

    [sigh]
     
  20. fshagan

    fshagan Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Oct 31 2007, 12:34 PM) [snapback]533060[/snapback]</div>
    The amount "by weight"? I'm not sure that means that much. Plastic is much, much heavier than the microscopic phytoplankton. Does anyone here know how much phytoplankton weigh?

    The only thing I can find is a "Science Notes" article that says, near the coast where most phytoplankton lives, that two researchers: "Chavez and Kudela are pleased to report that their formula is accurate within a factor of two at predicting new primary production in Monterey Bay. That means that if the mathematical model predicts two pounds of phytoplankton per cubic yard of ocean water, the actual value would lie somewhere between one and four pounds."

    That doesn't say there is one to four pounds per cubic yard, of course. But the full article does say that phytoplankton exist mainly near the coasts and not too many are out in the middle of the ocean. The article is at http://scicom.ucsc.edu/scinotes/0201/lo/plankton/index.html and based on that, perhaps the best place for our swirling pile of plastic garbage is in the center of the ocean. :(