Extended oil change intervals..

Evan... now before we get started...what i think and what i do dont always jive with each other...

but i always looked at modern engines and oil going 5,000 miles in normal conditions. so with your engine running 40% of the time, that would imply going 12,500 miles right?.

well add in "adverse" conditions i.e. multiple startups....oh wait!! Toyota took steps to address that issue... ok, then...

actually i see your concern. for me, i have Toyota do my oil changes every 5,000 miles so i have a record of maintenance kept by the people who also hold my warrantee. now i feel that i will never have an issue with the engine so i wonder if i am wasting money by having such a short interval, but i am using standard oil and according to the oil guy, using synthetic doesnt increase the change interval... now should i believe a guy who is probably getting paid $9 an hour?

i think the thing that would concern me more is the weather. your EBH, stuffing the grill does help, but do you have that luxury at work?, i know a LOT of people in the medical field and it seems that 12 hour shifts are the rule, so that would be a long time to sit in an unprotected parking lot in the winter...studies show, cold weather is the killer.

what i was going to do is increase to changing by the seasons. change oil at the beginning of the cold season...probably twice over the winter, with 2nd one at beginning of warm season and then extend the interval for summer. for me, that would eliminate one oil change and save me $35.

 

My oil testing service is PdMA but there are several others. With the extra viscosity test, it costs $20. Be sure to ship the samples "ground." Motor oil is not considered a flammable fuel like gasoline or high proof alcohol or ethers.

My approach is:

• clean, dry, sample container - I prefer a half-pint water bottle, polycarbonate, that has been dried (aka., microwave or stored mouth down.) Polyethylene containers work great and most urine and medical sample bottles are prefect.
• sample like a urine stream - using a catch basin, start the flow and then take the sample, filling half or more of the sample bottle (yes it is messy!) You need at least 50 ml and 100 ml is perfect. Because the oil drain is on the bottom where sludge collects, it is vitally important to let the first flow go into the catch basin because it will have a heavy concentration of contaminants and will give a much worse value than after the initial crud has passed. Warmed but not hot oil is better but not a hard requirement. NOTE: consistency in taking the oil sample is much more important than anything else.
• identify the sample - vehicle, year, oil service miles, vehicle total miles, date, original oil
• supply a reference sample - if you don't already have access to a report with one, supply a clean, reference sample from the 'replacement' oil for the sample and purge flow already taken. Note that there are reports that the source oil is not always exactly the same numbers with some variation. If you'll post what you've used, I and others who have had reference samples tested will be happy to post them in reply.
• specify useful tests - in addition to the basic test, ask for 40C and 100C viscosity and oil viscosity index
• be sure the cover letter covers the basics - including your e-mail address. PdMA e-mails their results.
• refill for the sample taken - check your dip stick and/or the amount of oil in the catch pan and sample bottle to make sure the oil level is between E and F.

GOOD LUCK!

Bob Wilson

ps. There is a second approach that involves threading a thin plastic tube through the dipstick tube and a bulb to suction out the sample. The experts don't like this approach because the plastic tube can 'wipe' any sludge and concentrate it at the end of the tube. Worse, there is the risk of contamination from the bulb and any earlier samples. Drew Troyer and Jim Finch in Oil Analysis Basics have an extensive chapter on the sampling methodology.

 

Speaking from approximately NO experience in this area, I'd say that on an emotional level it's worth it for you to know what's going on in there. You wouldn't "lose face" by cutting out early on your first extended oil change interval, because it's your own money, your own car that you're talking about. UOA is not that pricey, and you do your own oil changes, right? So think of that as saving a few bucks every oil change so you can spend it on something else the car needs.

I'm sure some people will tell you to not worry, to go ahead, and if I knew what I was talking about, I'd probably tell you the same. But on a simple gut-level, do what feels right.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 13 2007, 08:39 AM) [snapback]538843[/snapback]</div>

Yes. I've used them for all of my transaxle oil analysis and been happy with the results. Their lab technicians have answered my questions and I've even spoken with them on the phone about some of the more interesting results.

When I was looking for oil testing services, one thing that attracted me to PdMA is they also handle transformer oil. Our Prius transaxles share similar electrical characteristics to a large, oil cooled transformers with the horrible mechanical challenges of an automotive transmission. I remain amazed and pleased that our transaxles have done so well considering the 300 VAC, 2001-03, and 500-600 VAC, 2004-current, Prius voltages deal with. Our transaxles truly combine the technical challenges of two worlds.

I have no doubt the other oil service testing companies offer similar services but I started with PdMA. BTW, I've been using Noria Corporation for a couple of technical, e-books. I also subscribe to two oil publications, Practical Oil Analysis and Machinery Lubrication, that have given me excellent insights to complement what I've learned from the oil testing. I'm not a lubrication expert but I can read and draw useful lessons.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 13 2007, 08:38 AM) [snapback]538824[/snapback]</div>

Evan,

I put almost 10k miles on Mobil 1 Extended Performance with a Pure One PL20195 filter. I had Blackstone labs to an analysis and posted it on PriusChat. Hunt around for it (search on Kohnen and you will find it).

Blackstone wasn't worried.

Only difference is I used M1EP, and it's not clear whether you're using M1EP, or plain vanilla M1.

Cheers! - k.

PS - Blackstone will send you a free sample kit if you ask them.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 13 2007, 06:28 AM) [snapback]538839[/snapback]</div>

Well, since you are starting to have a bout of cold feet, a used oil analysis could either give you the encouragement you are looking for, or it could tell you to change the oil as of yesterday. My vote would be to eat the $20 for analysis. If you go beyond 7,500 miles, I would do another oil analysis at the 7,500 mile point to confirm that you are not venturing out on the bleeding edge. $20 is a small price to pay for information that could avoid a fried engine.

 

I personally use BlackStone. They send you a free sampling kit when you request for one.

I highly recommend that you do the analysis. Others have good UOA results don't mean that you will, since we all have different commutes and environmental variables. I also suggest that you spend extra $ to perform the TBN test as well, http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do_i_need_a_tbn_.html.

 

Dr. Fusco your feet should not cool off until about 10k miles (with any good-quality synthetic oil). That said UOA are always good data and those of us who do go 10k don't get the info as frequently as we might wish.

Since we are talking about at least 2 UOA labs here, how about being the first (Prius) to send duplicate samples and see how their results compare. See, there are still some 'firsts' available in the Prius world.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Nov 13 2007, 09:18 AM) [snapback]538833[/snapback]</div>

David

I agree with most of your points except this one. The Toyota motors that sludged up were maintained "by the book." The problem is that "by the book" was too long for garbage minimum spec North American oil, hence Toyota lowering the oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles

jay

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 13 2007, 08:38 AM) [snapback]538824[/snapback]</div>

Evan

As you may be aware, the EU market Prius - running ACEA spec motor oil - has a normal 12 month or 10,000 mile interval. According to the Mobil 1 website, regular Mobil 1 5W-30 meets the ACEA A1/B1 specs, while the Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 meets A1/A5 and B1/B5 specs

The A5/B5 specs specifically cover extended oil change intervals, which in the EU can be up to 24 months or 30,000 miles

Another good oil is Mobil 1 0W-40, which meets ACEA A3/B4-02 specs. The A3/B4-02 spec covers very severe operating conditions and very long oil change intervals. I'm considering this oil for my FJ Cruiser, as my oil analysis reports a lot of viscosity shear.

Whatever choice you make, I strongly suggest a few UOA to establish a baseline. Very similar to ordering labs for a patient, and comparing their results to normal baseline.

It's best to sample "midstream" same as a urine sample. Most heavy equipment makers and OTR Class 8 truck makers recommend the tube and pump approach. I use the tube and pump approach and don't appear to have any issues with residue pickup

 

I started using Mobil One on my 2007 Prius at 5,137.0 miles and plan on changing every 10K miles. Currently at 13,485.0 miles -

What do you guys/gals recommend would be the best oil filter?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jeffelectric @ Nov 14 2007, 02:12 PM) [snapback]539565[/snapback]</div>

I like the Purolator PL20195

It's about two sizes oversized, so there's lots of filtering media. And, it's rumored to filter out very small particulates.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kohnen @ Nov 14 2007, 08:27 PM) [snapback]539735[/snapback]</div>

Instead of rumored, do we have spec of the particle diameter that the Purolator filter can filter out? Amsoil claims that their Ea Oil filter can filter down to 15 microns, http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/eao.aspx.

I tried looking for it, but couldn't find the spec on their website, http://www.pureoil.com/

 

Been going 10-12K with no problems..
Have the oil analysis to prove it..

So don't worry!!

 

Howdy fellow Prius owners,

I'm new to the site, but I'm an old hand when it comes to oil (natural and synthetic) changes and filters.

I used to do a lot of technical analysis to help determine how to get the absolute maximum return on the cost of lubricaion products. Most of the brain drain exercises :blink: involved the evaluation lubrication products that would improve performance (effective horsepower) over the product's normal life span. The focus was to study these products under extreme :wacko: (racing) conditions to assess their ability to maintain viscosity and heat dissipation properties.

This is probably the place where we will track down different paths.

Most of this discussion (that I've been reading) focuses on extending oil change intervals assuming that this is the absolute path to Nirvana, but the topic was introduced hoping for reassurances that riding the razor's edge would not lead to an unpleasent or costly conclusion.

Under normal operating conditions, natural and synthetic oils will do their job to protect engine parts from excessive wear. "Normal operating conditions" is a term that should be interpreted in a very conservative way or it could lead to unexpected outcomes. :angry:

When playing with fire, you will certainly increase your risk of getting burned.

I got into the "Hybrid" game to improve my cost of commuting, but became tempted to attain exceptional MPG performance because the Prius's brain showed me the way, if I could improve my driving skills.

I was able to overcome being "tempted" because I was able to shake to OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Distress) that TMTI (too much technical information) was promising. In my advancing years I have been afforded the luxury to see past the instant gratification, in favor of having more realistic expectations like taking the time to enjoy the time that I have.

I will do my best to help save the planet from CO2 poisoning, by nearly tripling my MPGs with my new Prius Hybrid, but I won't take twice as long to reach the destination because I have to reach the magical 60 MPG plateau.

Also, I can't get too excited about the differences between the 1 cent per mile cost of complete lubrication ( 4 qts. of $6 synthetic oil and 1 heavy duty $6 oil filter) replenishment and the 1 cent per 3 miles if I extend the time and distance.

My father did a good job beating the "Oil and Filter every 3000 miles is the best insurance policy you can buy for your engine" message into my head, that I'm compelled to pass along the mantra to all that will listen (read).

Don't worry, be happy with your wonderful gas sipping Prius

Andy (angusdru)

 

i agree, as a certified motorcycle tech, i'v seen air cooled engines, go 150k miles + with just basic common sense maintenance. theres even some theories that synthetic is so slippery that roller bearings dont rotate enough and develop flat spots..not sure about that, so i agree with andy, get it out at 3000 miles. i've used semi synthetic and regular oil in my rav4, 90k miles, still pullin hard, always changed at 3000 miles

 

as an engine ages you should consider seal wear too. by 100k the engine needs some extra TLC. time>rubber. use wears em out too.

our es250 came with a 7500 mile interval, but with ~150k on the engine it gets new oil and filter every 3k. and it needs it.