Electric Scooter/Motorcycle

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriuStorm @ Oct 14 2007, 07:43 PM) [snapback]525583[/snapback]</div>

Not out of the question, we just need to rethink exactly how far and how fast we need to go! Make some friends along the way while you stop and charge up

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cheap! @ Jul 6 2006, 09:48 AM) [snapback]281988[/snapback]</div>

Cheap, you're just joking about your VTX right. It gets to 55 mph way faster than 30 seconds. According to Motorcyclist Magazine the VTX1300 does the ¼ mile in 13.72 seconds at 94.5 mph. You just need to turn that throttle a little bit more.

NO loud pipes DON'T save lives. Loud pipes lose rights. We have enough people that hate motorcyclist because of people that ride around with open pipes. Leave the baffles in your exhaust.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(n8kwx @ Oct 15 2007, 01:45 AM) [snapback]525769[/snapback]</div>

Some gasoline scooters for a comparison:

Burgman 650 is $8999
Honda Silverwing ABS is $8599
Burgman 400 is $5949
Vespa GTS 250 is $5999

Vespa will have a hybrid scooter available next fall. If I remember correctly they will have a 50cc hybrid and an 150cc hybrid.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 16 2007, 12:57 PM) [snapback]526438[/snapback]</div>

Thanks.

Quickie calculation:

Scooter $7000 (average)
Gas $4440 (74k miles, $3 gallon, 50 MPG)
Total $11,440

Vectrix $11,000
Electrons $440 (74k miles, 10 cents per kWh, 3kWh per charge, 50 miles per charge)
Total $11,440

It seems that you'd have to ride 74k miles to break even (financially). Not bad!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Oct 16 2007, 12:57 PM) [snapback]526438[/snapback]</div>

Burgman 650 Executive MSRP is $8999. This includes electrically adjustable windscreen, ABS brakes and electrically foldable mirrors at the push of a button. (2008 model)

The standard Burger 650 is $7899 for the 2008 model.

If you're just looking to buzz around town, ZAP already has an electric scooter out... it has top speed of 30mph, and is about the equivalent of a 150cc scooter. MSRP on that, I believe, is $2,995 (you can find the gas version for a little more than half). Both are made in China.

http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/...lectric-scooter

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jimmy Neutron @ Nov 19 2007, 03:05 PM) [snapback]541612[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, I upped the specs for the li-ion. I was pessimistic that a 40ah battery would get longer range than 50ah. But it seems to be getting much longer range as reported by 3rd party: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2360-recogn...r#comment-11075

Video of lead-acid ride here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5F9v6F4_BQ
Higher resolution version here: http://fun.evs.googlepages.com/Scooter_48mph.wmv

 

From the V is for voltage link now I would be very hesitant to buy one of the L-ion Chinese scooters.

If you read the thread you will find that the L-ion version has no battery management system. That is how they are able to make the L-ion version so cheap. The battery management issue is what makes L-Ion cells so difficult and expensive to work with.

This is a disaster waiting to happen when one of the cells gets reversed charged during charging or deep discharges. I predict lots of battery fires.

DanCar are you the importer for these scooters?

 

Yes, I'm one of the importers. One of the posts talks about tightening the voltage limits so that cell reversal is less likely.

If you have more info about string charge/discharge issues, I would like to hear it. I heard a rumor that li-ion are self equalizing, but haven't found evidence to support that.

LiFePO4 batteries don't catch fire, although it is a disaster if the battery pack goes out early. You need 800 degrees centigrade for thermal runaway to occur.

Thanks,
Daniel

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanCar @ Nov 21 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]542592[/snapback]</div>

It's good to hear that LiFEPO4 batteries don't catch fire. However, I'm positive that they need a battery management system. I'm no expert on batteries and electronic but I have hung around the EV Discussion List for long enough to learn from the experts. According to these experts that work in electronics and have built EV's, the new battery chemistries are great for performance, but the need for a BMS puts them out reach for most EV converters. This is why when you go to the EV Discussion List's Photo Album you will see that 95% or more of the EV's use lead acid batteries.

Also, some of the manufacturers of EV bikes that I listed above are also working on L-ion version of their bikes. However, they have been working on these upgraded versions for years and still don't have them available. I would think if it was a simple as just switching lead acid for improved LiFePO4 batteries they wouldn't be having so much trouble.

Tesla is also using L-ion batteries in their car and have stressed all of the advanced work that has been necessary to develop their BMS that monitors each individual cell during charge and discharge.

Even the L-ion batteries in power tools such as the A123 cells in DeWalt's L-ion power tools have a BMS in each battery pack.

I suggest you look at www.falconev.com This company provides LiFeP04 battery packs, BMS, and chargers for scooter and E-Bike applications. You may notice that their systems cost $700 for a 36V, 12 Ah E-Bike pack. I suspect a 60V, 40Ah LiFePO4 pack, BMS, and Charger from them would cost nearly as much as your complete scooter. You will also notice that their battery packs have a BMS as shown by each cell having a wire running to the charger.

I'm not trying to get into your business, but you are opening yourself up to a lot of liability by selling these scooters to the public. As the importer, if someone has issues, it will be you that the lawyers come after, not the manufacturer in China.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Nov 22 2007, 09:25 PM) [snapback]543058[/snapback]</div>

I've been on the EVDL list for sometime too and other forums. In my opinion the main reason that 95% are lead is because of price of li-ion and quality and reliability horror stories from the low cost leader which is ThunderSky (TS). A BMS will extend the life of the li-ion but a full BMS, both at discharge and charge costs more than a new set of batteries. So you have to ask yourself which is worse. The cost of TS batteries have dropped substantially over the past months, so you will see an increase in EVDL people using this solution. Also they are setting up automated assembly lines, which should help increase quality.

I would be interested if you defined "need a BMS". I outlined a tightening of voltage so that cell reversal is less likely:

I've also indicated that people need to monitor their batteries. Various solutions exists, such as a simple voltmeter or something sophisticated like PakTrakr.

The question becomes, what is more economical:
1. An expensive BMS
2. A simple solution, simple monitoring, and replacing cells when they are near death.

Hopefully in the end BMS will drop in price and won't have to worry about it.

Thanks for the advice,
Daniel

 

UGBEST E-Scooter -------perfect scooter

Welcome to www.ugbest.com

 

UGBEST E-Scooter -------perfect scooter

Welcome to www.ugbest.com