Ever feel like just getting out of here?

I think this has the potential to be a very interesting thread. It also has the potential to attract the "if you hate America so much ...." crowd. Eh, what are you gonna do.

I've never seriously considered leaving the USA. Mostly because, despite what I think of our current administration, I still think this is the greatest country there is. I just think we have our priorities wrong.

After my wife & I visited Scotland this past May, I did check if there were job openings in my field there (and how much they pay). The country is so beautiful and the people so friendly that I was willing to have a 1 or 2 year adventure so we could spend more time there.

I felt the same when when we visited Montreal a few years ago. I'm not much of a city person, but I just absolutely loved it there and could be quite happy (if cold) there.

If I were single, the decision would be a lot easier. I might just go somewhere for the adventure. I'm not close to my family, so there's nothing of that sort tying me here. But my wife absolutely loves where we live. She's never wanted to live anywhere else (she grew up here) and would never be happy anywhere but the Jersey Shore. Having lived here for 9 years myself, I'm inclined to agree.

 

I've briefly considered moving (and technically have dual USA/UK citizenship), but ultimately I do think the US is the best country for me. What it lacks in 'green-ness' it makes up for in social arenas (primarily racial equality and honesty, freedom of speech, immigrant inclusiveness, predisposition toward meritocracy, etc.) that I feel a lack of in the European countries I am familiar with. I certainly care about the environment, but it's not my one-issue item.

I do have a couple friends who are in the midst of emigrating to Argentina (a move started, not coincidently after the 2004 elections). They spent a half-year driving across the US in a VW bus to see where they live now, then a year bouncing around South America to find where they wanted to settle. Beyond minor things (getting a permanent apartment without a local land owner to co-sign has proven tricky), but as well educated and highly skilled professionals the paperwork and approvals are moving along without a hitch. It's likely that most everyone on this board could do the same; American education is actually pretty darn good and if you are from the educational strata that can typically afford a Prius, pretty much any nation in the world will put out a welcome mat. it's just a matter of if there honestly is someplace that, when all factors are accounted for, better fits your social comfort desires.

From observation, one doesn't emigrate in one fell swoop. It's a long process and its easy to leave yourself outs along the way, so while it's a huge initial leap it is pretty easy to reverse course (although you may have to get back on a waiting list for a new Prius if the '09 is as awesome as it is suppose to be :lol: ).

 

I consider New Zealand for about five minutes maybe once a year. Friendly people, english speaking, asian presence, great outdoors, california lifestyle, twice the amount of coast yet 1/10 the population of Cali.

But in the end, I love this fricking country. I love my family. I love my friends.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 27 2007, 08:15 PM) [snapback]544825[/snapback]</div>

Because its government is not operated for the benefit of its citizens.

 

I've often thought about moving to a common wealth country. Wife would never go for it, however. I'd love NZ (I know, SamIam, you guys don't want me), or the UK. I identify with their culture and already speak the language, which is a huge plus. I'm hoping that as we (the US) move forward we're going to look around and realize that other countries have it as good or better than us in many of the areas that we've always thought we were tops. The implementation is different, yes, but often equally good. However, what works in Europe may no work here. Our culture and mentality is different. American's are obsessed with the rights of the individual and 'me'. Europeans are much less that way, I'd wager.

I'd luv the chance to watch New Castle United week end and week out (provided that they don't play like they are right now, depressing).

 

I was born in Denmark and was just there for a 3 week vacation this past summer. Every time I go back, I find it so interesting how such a little country can provide so much for its citizens, and the "greatest" country in history can't even compare. Like one of the above posters mentioned, Denmark lives green EVERY day... it's part of the culture to save water, compost, conserve resources, use gas frugally, etc. Windmills are everywhere where practical. I remember my parents using an electric lawnmower when I was 9 years old (over three decades ago). Dual flush toilets are the norm and have been for decades.

Thats just green... How about roads/highways? Denmark is a country that gets frost, snow, ice.. and occasionally gets some decent summer temps. But the roads are immaculate considering all the weather beating they get and the amount of traffic they withstand on a daily basis. Even the smallest country backroad is without potholes, and there are a lot of roads connecting all those little towns. Compare to here where we have tar snakes all over the place, potholes, raggedy-ann-patchwork of potholes everywhere, etc. and that's in moderate climate (rare freezing) California.

Denmark and Sweden just built an engineering marvel, a tunnel/bridge connecting Sweden and Denmark. Here, we have collapsing freeway ramps, collapsing bridges, etc. Want to buy quality? Don't buy American... buy Scandinavian, European or Japanese. American products (whether furniture, cars, etc.) just don't compare to products engineered and built by Europe, Scandinavia or Japan.

Denmark has social medicine. This has its positives as well as its negatives. If the U.S. were smart, they would take all the positives of a system like that and implement it with all the positives our healthcare system has to offer. But we don't, so where in Denmark every citizen can expect to receive the same B level of care, in the U.S., out of 6 patients, 1 receives A level, 4 receive B level, and 1 receives no care. I'll take guaranteed B level any day over risking to be the guy without any care whatsoever. The other thread going mentioned how the U.S. ranks 37th in healthcare in the world.

As a result, Denmark and the other European countries are as a people healthier than Americans... Less diabetes, less obesity (though it's on the rise as more McDonald's and 7-11's get built), etc. The Netherlands were honored with having the tallest people on earth last year, towering over Americans (Americans adjusted for 'shorter' immigrant populations). The Netherlands' 'feat' was attributed to (of all things) their excellent health care, especially prenatal and infancy.

The U.S. as a whole lags behind pretty much all other industrialized countries when it comes to general education. Our kids are graduating high school dumber and dumber, and learn a fraction of what kids in European schools learn. Sure, those kids who are driven propel themselves onto higher educational institutions and excel there, and we do have some of the best institutions there worldwide, but as a nation, we pretty much suck. Take a random sampling of American kids, European kids, Chinese kids, etc., and Americans don't know second languages, don't know their geography, don't know their history, science, math, etc. We think it's funny when we watch Jay Leno put someone on the spot with simple questions about American government, but truly it's sad.

Back to the original question... I only stay here because I am in a committed relationship of several decades, and my partner does not want to move. But I worry greatly that the U.S. is on the brink of an economic collapse. Should I find myself single at some point, I wouldn't stay here at all. There are some wonderful American people here, but generally speaking, Americans are too full of entitlement, superiority (mistaken and unearned), swagger, bully-nature... and lack taking responsibility, doing their part, being open to constructive criticism or other ideas, etc.

Americans are quick to tout all the "freedoms" that are guaranteed by the Constitution. You can thank GWB that those are not so guaranteed any more. And the U.S. is not the only country where you can speak your mind and not worry about governmental retribution. Only in the U.S. can a pauper be made a rich man in the courtroom because they spilled a hot cup of coffee in their lap while they were driving their car. I'd wager any European country would have thrown Stella on her nice person. Common sense, another lost character in the U.S.

Some may say... if the U.S. isn't so great, why do people come here? By now, the word has gotten out that the country is out of control, and anyone can profit like the Enron and Halliburton crooks have (oh, and if you're caught and have enough money, then you're just put up for a few years in a posh holding area). It's a crook's haven in the U.S., where phishers and spammers are protected by freedom of speech, and free to scam and pilfer all they want (oh sure, a token few may be picked up by the feds, but it's a small amount). In America, you can get away with murder if you have enough money. And you can get enough money easily by scamming and hiding it. Americans are more concerned with what Demi Moore is wearing (or not)while she's pregnant, whether O.J. is going to get away with it again, whether Britney is going to lose her kids, etc., than they are about the current state of affairs. It's very sad.

And this election will be no different... programmed by corporate advertising (brainwashing) to be good little selfish consumers, Americans will follow like mindless sheep behind whoever disturbs their status quo the least. America used to stand for progress and improvement. Now it stands for bureaucracy and hypocrisy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

Been there, done that, T-shirts galore.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

EDIT
I see that the last part of my post was truncated when the system froze on me.
Here's something similar to what I said.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

Our children were approaching middle-school age and we couldn't afford to buy them handguns


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ezbngrn @ Nov 28 2007, 07:27 AM) [snapback]544779[/snapback]</div>

Closer to 8,000 miles for us.
We were already in the *best* state in the union.
Money doesn't go further (see the threads about prius prices), so that wasn't a factor.

I had to work on convincing my wife for nearly 10 years. She finally decided we had to have jobs waiting for us prior to moving, I would have been happy selling burritos on the beach.

Lots of reasons for moving. Don't feel like being controversial today though.
One I will share: I wanted to slow down the apparent passage of time by experiencing a new way of life.
Emigration has been shown to produce a significant broadening to the reminiscence bump in autobiographical memory. (I'll have more to savour at the time, and more to look back on).

Never regretted a day in the eleven+ years since we made the move.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PriuStorm @ Nov 27 2007, 04:01 PM) [snapback]544850[/snapback]</div>

See what you can do when you don't have to support a military industrial complex? The thing about maintaining a military industrial complex is that every now and then you have to take it out for a ride to justify paying for it. No one ever tells you that there are user fees when you take that bad boy out for a ride though.

 

i don't think we could leave. but i am scared to death of staying here should one of us get more sick than we have already. if we can nearly lose everything before even getting a correct diagnosis for DH, i'm scared out of my mind what would have happened to us had another situation last year not worked out so well for me. and if it recurs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 28 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]544860[/snapback]</div>

Say it ain't so Dr Fusco!
NZ appreciates their ER docs more than the Okkers do

(no offense Pat, AussieOwner, etc)
We got waaay more cultural diversity...
And yes, we have no poisonous critters.
B)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Nov 28 2007, 09:25 AM) [snapback]544836[/snapback]</div>

We don't feel that way Tripp!
The welcome mat is definitely still out...
When's your flight?

 

Yeah, but you do have these...


[attachmentid=12647]

For scale... that's a full sized Kauri it's on.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Nov 28 2007, 11:29 AM) [snapback]544886[/snapback]</div>

Had one crawling on the back of my hand while I was driving the tractor this past weekend.
Pretty much covered my entire hand. Interesting that after a while you lose your startle
reflex to these things when there's no danger (and I was raised where rattlers and black widows were everywhere...)
I also see wild pheasants, peacocks, rosellas (parrots), in our yard. Seeing these critters actually gives me a fair bit of joy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Nov 28 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]544889[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, they got more money to throw around. Won't argue that a bit.
But money isn't everything (see comments regarding *joy* above)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(samiam @ Nov 27 2007, 03:19 PM) [snapback]544882[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for the invite, mate. Now, just convince my wife. :lol:

So you guys still use the term Okkers? Isn't that sort of a dated expression these days?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Nov 27 2007, 02:57 PM) [snapback]544872[/snapback]</div>

I can't really spend much time reply to this as I'm just taking a break (at the office). Anyway, I admit I had a vision of myself telling everyone in the thread to "get the heck out if you don't like this country"... but I'll refrain as that's obviously not very productive. :lol:

I'm a British subject. My father was British and my mom is American. I spend a lot of time in Europe. In fact I just got off the phone with my uncle in the UK and will unfortunately have to fly out probably tomorrow as my grandfather isn't doing to well. Anyway, I like to see the advantages and disadvantages to each. Yeah I'm biased, but probably in the opposite way as everyone else here. I'm almost completely against socialized medicine.... and surprise, I voted for Bush. I would concede that socialized medicine should be provided for children up to 18 years of age. In addition care to the elderly should be considered as well. I believe though the working American should be able to pay for his own healthcare and it should not be provided by the government. I truly believe this is the best way to insure we have the very best medicine available. People are motivated by money whether they admit it or not and in order to get the very best doctors you have to pay them the very best wages. The government controlling healthcare would greatly affect that. In addition as much as my family loves their healthcare they complain about two things. First, the wait to get a needed surgery, and the next big one is taxes. Taxes is probably my biggest point. Yeah, I can have the government pay for everything in the world but am I ready to pay over 50% of my income for it? Socialized medicine isn't free. It's paid for by tax money. That leads me to ask myself if I'd rather pay $800/mo for my family to be covered by insurance or would I rather pay an additional 25% tax monthly to have a lower level of care? The way I see it if you're able-bodied get out there and work.... and pay for health insurance. If you're able-bodied and sitting at home watching Jerry Springer all day bitching and moaning about how the government isn't giving you the opportunity to be successful and healthy then, well, I can't help you...and neither should the government. Get off your nice person, read a book, take some classes, and be productive.

Now back to socialized medicine for kids and the elderly...especially the kids. I'm saddened that a child would have to suffer because their parent is a dead beat and can't pay for healthcare. As such, I'd vote for socialized medicine for children.... Knowing "stuff" happens, I also would be willing to concede in the event of someone losing their job some type of plan that would allow something similar to COBRA to extend benefits for a period of time while this person proves they're actively looking for a job... paid for by the government. A plan like this would be the government helping people that want (and need) to be helped, not helping people that just want to free load off the system.

 

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