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I'm out

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by naterprius, Nov 29, 2007.

  1. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Nate: I agree with your total opposition to SUVs. And if you feel your time is not well spent here on PC, then of course you need to make your own choice how to spend your time. But please note that it is possible to express your views about SUVs and their effect on the nation and the environment without breaking PC's rule against personal insults. It's all in your choice of language.

    I repeat that I will be sorry to see you go.
     
  2. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    Daniel, I wasn't moderated for using a personal insult. In fact, the mods let it slide.

    In fact, I was CENSORED. I was censored over an ISSUE that a moderator did not like. I am upset over CENSORSHIP. A moderator took sides on an issue, and that is the heart of the problem.

    Those of you who declare I shouldn't complain about being moderated are in fact correct. I have never been moderated. In fact, I might agree that I should have been moderated. (Another part of me would say he had it coming, but I digress).

    My complaint is censorship over an issue. Stop focusing on the fact that I called DocVijay a moron, that isn't even part of this.

    I don't even know who censored me. Who can I complain to? Nobody, that's who. I had an entire paragraph that addressed the heart of an issue, and it was deleted without notification.

    Those of you who believe I am upset because I was moderated should realize that I was never moderated, only censored, and the same thing can happen to you. That is a very dangerous precedent.

    Nate
     
  3. airportkid

    airportkid Will Fly For Food

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    I'd be surprised if the mods truly deleted a paragraph that "addressed the heart of the issue" - if there was any editing at all I'd suspect removal for improper language and incivility, not because of viewpoint, which is what you (Nate) seem to be implying.

    If it were me who'd had a paragraph mysteriously deleted with no mod's PM of explanation, I'd've reposted the paragraph by itself in a new post as a "test" and asked for a general consensus of acceptability - if the paragraph wasn't obviously abusive, that is.

    Was it a "clean" paragraph, Nate? If not, your expressed "outrage" hasn't got much to back it up.

    Nonetheless, I DO believe whomever edited it should have PM'd you at the very least.

    Mark Baird
    Alameda CA
     
  4. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    The admin who edited your post should have PMed you, telling you why they edited it. But put on your Big Boy pants and stop whining about admins doing their job, OK?
     
  5. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Nate,
    How can I get you the 10 million for the 300-2300 mile electric car you can make?:D

    I know you are irked at something, but I listen since you have actually DONE stuff as a pioneering EV driver. There are too few of you to have you leave.

    Don't stay mad at the admin (no matter how correct you are). Be smarter than the admin and get your message out cleverly, not defiantly. You can outwit censorship, you cannot outwit surrender.
     
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Nate,
    I consider you a friend. You could have PM'd me...but you didn't. I still do not know what was changed, what you said, or why it was removed...I've never been asked to check into it.
    Further, I find it hard to believe that it was content that was edited considering that I too replied that I didn't approve of or agree with Bjorn's choice/decision.
    If you appeal the decision to me or Danny then you have a chance of us looking into it and fixing the situation. If you pick up your marbles(or your threads as the situation this time) and run away crying about things being unfair there's nothing we can do.
    What did you type...PM it to me..show/tell me what was censored and I'll be happy to bring it to the other mods, we'll discuss it and get back to you. But I'll tell you that I don't think there's a single one of us that feels that your general point of view on the subject is wrong and I seriously doubt any of us would censor you from expressing that in a respectful manner. It's possible it was misunderstood. It's possible you said something you didn't realize.
    But there's no way to know unless and until you ask us to look into it. State your case in a clear manner and we'll hear you out. But your assertion that we're censoring your content just doesn't make sense at all.

    The ball is in your court and you can deal with this any way you wish, but I also want it made clear that this isn't some concerted effort to quash your point of view on the subject. It isn't some effort to get rid of you. I, and as far as I know the rest of the mods, support your perspective 100%...we just don't support the way you chose to express it. Don't hang this issue on us any further than the fact that you did have ONE post edited. The rest of the time we gave you all the rope you wanted...don't complain if you hanged yourself with it.
     
  7. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    I remember reading Nate's post in question late one night, and I would have been very surprised had it not been edited on his behalf. Nothing personal, Nate, but it seems to me you're failing to make the distinction between a person and their actions.
     
  8. Ichabod

    Ichabod Artist In Residence

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    Both sides seem a little defensive here, and I' sure it doesn't help for Nate to cry "censorship" or for everyone else to call him a whiny baby.

    Nate, it's really up to you if you stay or go, but now I'm curious: If you really feel you have a case and content was removed that shouldn't have been,
    I'd like to know whether, by appeal to the mods in general, a reasonable solution can be reached. It does affect those of us who choose to "stick around" so do us at least the one last favor and please follow through on this one.

    [edit for clarification]
    I'm not just interested in whether you can get your way... I mean if you were right then I'd love to know that the team here would agree with you and apologize or somehow atone for their mistake... but I'd also like to hear about it if you decide that a comment like (and I'm totally making this up) "driving a car like that puts you 1 step down from a mass murderer, so why don't you start by killing yourself and your family," was way off base and maybe say to yourself and the rest of us, "after careful consideration, I may have overreacted."
     
  9. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    Evan, no one is stopping you from looking into it.

    I really don't care whether "I get my way" as Ichabod puts it.

    I do not trust the moderators anymore.

    I was privy to an internal discussion amongst the moderators due to a permissions error on the board earlier today and it wasn't pretty. Here's the gist of it:

    Evan is convinced that the reason for me deleting some selected posts is due to the fact that I am a five year old child.

    Danny plans to try to piss me off by reposting things that I did not want left behind, and there's nothing I can do about it since he turned off editing for my account.

    Tideland Prius thinks that will be hilarious, LOL, since they have backups from before the server cutover so they can do what they want.

    TonyPSchaefer suggests doing it in small pieces to avoid the trouble of doing it all at once.

    It was at this point that I posted inside the moderator's forum that I did not think it was wise to repost the things I didn't want to leave behind. I'm sure Danny went "Oh Crap" and promptly changed the permissions.

    At this point, I do not trust the moderators and simply want out. But I want to leave the deleted threads the way they are. I'm happy to explain to Evan or Danny on the phone what these threads have in common and why I felt they needed to be deleted. (Evan check the voicemail on your cell phone). Evan continues to accuse me "of taking my marbles" and leaving like a child. Why don't you focus on the many, many useful contributions I left behind which I did not delete, nor do I have any reason to?

    Evan, if you want to sort this out, call me. You've got my number.

    Nate
     
  10. patrickindallas

    patrickindallas Shire rat

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    I thought you were leaving?:confused:

    I must have completely misunderstood your posts.

    I guess I should lobby to be a moderator now. ;)
     
  11. SW03ES

    SW03ES Senior Member

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    Wow...self important much?

    "I don't trust the moderators anymore and want out"

    "I've been censored!"

    "I'm deleting things that could get me in legal trouble"

    "The moderators are making fun of me!"

    Get a grip. This is an internet forum, a PRIVATELY OWNED internet forum. They can censor you, change what you've written, make your screen name a dirty word. They can do whatever they want because they own the forum. You own nothing and they owe you just that, nothing

    Now, obviously this isn't whats going on here. DocVijay made a decision you don't agree with and showed that he doesn't posess the same world view or set of values you do. Seeing the aforementioned notion of self grandeur you seem to posess you of course concluded he's the anti-christ and you got all bent out of shape and said a whole bunch of nasty crap. The moderators removed some of it which they should have.

    Now you're all butt-hurt running around deleting things you've posted and changing your location to question marks and cutting your head out of all the family photos. Stuff you can get sued for? Oh please. What did you post the plans to a secret government seal feeding machine that turns nuclear waste into dead fish? You maybe posted some way to disable some beeper or other dumb thing your "friends" at "Toyota" leaked to you. Guess what? They don't care.

    You keep saying "I want out" and "that is all". Yet...you keep posting. Members like you NEVER have the guts to leave.

    The moderators made fun of you in the moderator forum and somebody leaked it. Yeah, I'm sure they did. Know why? Because you continue to humiliate yourself over this and its funny.

    Either leave or be quiet and stay. The forum will go on just fine without you, probably better.
     
  12. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Yes, there is...you. I will call you tomorrow and discuss it, but you've shown no effort to make things right.

    It's unfortunate that you saw that. But you need to put the tone into perspective. Yes, I think you've handled this badly...very badly. You have valid points by choose to express them in a very negative way.
    We find it childish and frustrating that you chose to delete the posts that you did. That frustration is expressed in the thread you read. Whatever your reasons for deleting posts you, again, made a very poor decision in how you went about deleting them. You could have asked us to delete them. Asked us what the best way was to go about editing the posts you'd made that you felt were so sensitive. So yea, we beat on you a little in that private forum out of that frustration. There's nothing about trust you need to be concerned of...you've no reason to distrust us. And you'll find nothing I said in that private forum is any different than what I've said to you in private e-mail or publicly in the forums.
    But the reality is that I don't know how to find what all threads you've edited or deleted your posts from...at some point in the future we may, indeed, look them up and restore them. If they were so sensitive you should have never posted them. But the fact that you deleted the very first post in this thread tells me that there was more to it than just 'sensitive Toyota information. But I will wait to talk with you before restoring anything.
    Pretty close on that count!!

    Frankly I haven't gone through to inventory them. I do hope there are many and you certainly made many great contributions. But I still don't understand this lack of trust issue or any of the other stuff you're talking about.

    I will. I do want to sort it out. I hope you're more motivated to do so than the evidence thus far shows.
     
  13. SW03ES

    SW03ES Senior Member

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    You're a classy guy Evan. Much classier than I'd be.
     
  14. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    Far out. Who needs writers for TV when we have this?? I want to see how it all turns out!


    Frankly, when it comes to Doc's choice of vehicle, I would say, that posting about here, is a kin to posting about the abortion you got on the Pro Life site. It's not going to get a very warm reception.

    And if I was the kind of person who was mean spirited, and all, I would point out to Doc, that his decision was selfish, and will, in the long run, harm the planet more then help it.

    But I am not that person...really. But (confession time), it did fell a little bit good typing that out right there. Ug, now I am that person. Ding dong nab it.

    Okay, I have to take responsibility; sorry Doc for calling you a selfish person.

    There. Now things are all rosey. Well, glad that's over.


    (TJ goes off, whistling away, as he realizes this is just the internets, and it's not that important what he or anyone else really thinks, since we all have opinions, and they vary)...
     
  15. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    Nate, I have been where you are and I know the frustration you feel. Mine was over a racist thread on another forum I no longer visit although I am able. I hope you follow the path that you feel is right. I have seen similar since on other boards but I now bite my lip, I hate intolerance and that people have little empathy for those with less than them especially if they look different.

    You like many of us have strong views about the environment, that happens, there are those you can sway to your way of thinking, expend your energy there and those who lose their way on the greener life path may be coaxed back but name calling wont do it. Some are totally lost and there is no way to recover them, leave them and move on.

    Good luck with what ever path you choose, we the general members enjoy most of your posts and all of your information.
     
  16. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Nate: I had been under the impression that the censored content was something along the lines of calling DocVijay a murderer for buying an SUV. Given that the mods (as well as the majority of the members) share your dislike of SUVs, I find it hard to believe they'd have censored content other than a personal attack, providing that it was expressed in suitable language.

    Can you post a synopsis or a general description of type of the censored content? When I was reprimanded, once, for a post that a mod considered offensive, I was able to make my point by toning down the language and altering the form of the statement to refer to a behavior rather than to the individuals engaging in that behavior.

    On the other hand, even though this is a private forum, common decency dictates that when a mod edits the post of a long-time member in good standing, a PM should be sent to the member explaining the reason for the edit.

    There are a limited number of moderators on PC. I suggest that the mods get together, find out who did the editing, apologize to Nate for having failed to send a PM, and then, if Nate does not object, someone describe in this thread the actual reason for the edit, if a synopsis of the edited content is really inappropriate.

    We all make mistakes, and if this whole thing resulted from a moderator's error of judgement, it would be a terrible thing to lose Nate over it.
     
  17. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    I'm really late to this thread.

    I'll agree with naterprius that going from a Prius to a Navigator just grates on me however, at least a bit of diplomacy/civility should be exercised. Being a moderator at another forum, I'm sometimes faced with this very situation: agreed with the viewpoint, but a less than appropiate delivery. I can't go into some of the situations, but a few potray me as being at odds with the ungreen in a wacko manner, yet seems mild in this dispute.

    My journey in cyberspace is by no means complete, but harsh replies are generally counterproductive.
     
  18. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    I have to add my voice to the chorus of "I agree with the message, I disagree with the way it was said."
     
  19. apriusfan

    apriusfan New Member

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    I too have come to this thread late after checking in and out of the DocVijay and the Navigator thread. While I can understand frustration with being censored, if you have aspirations at being involved in politics, you might consider some things I have learned observing the contact sport that is politics in the U.S.:

    1. The only absolute in politics is failure (as in Hillarycare I and dubya's Immigration Reform).

    2. Failure is an orphan.

    3. Success has many parents. (Too many to have participated in procreation of the success....)

    If you are upset over being censured, how would you respond to being swiftboated? The more your profile appears on the political 'radar', the greater your risk of being swiftboated.

    You might want to consider this episode as something of a training experience in how to handle conflict if you are serious in your political aspirations.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
     
  20. priusenvy

    priusenvy Senior Member

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    Oh what the hell...

    Nate writing that DocVijay "murdered" (really no quotes necessary - that was the word he used) the girl he struck with his Prius was way, way, way over the line, and deserving of a lengthy ban IMHO. I am often very rude to posters who post misinformation (and those who demonstrate high levels of stupidity) in this forum, but I would never ever consider posting anything like what Nate posted. Good riddance I say.