1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Will the EU ever Rival the US as a Worlds Superpower

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by dbermanmd, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Perhaps you can find a more recent article to post than 2003?

    Again, its profitability rather than size that would concern me the most. The disaster that is the Airbus super jumbo jet will probably make for excellent case studies in business school over here on what not to do or how not to do it in terms of building a commercial jet.
     
  2. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    4,333
    7
    0
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Will November 28, 2007 do?

    The Arizona Republic
     
  3. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    4,946
    252
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
  4. Hobbs

    Hobbs New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    80
    0
    0
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    "Originally published 26 Dec 2003, last update 10 Nov 2007". Perhaps reading the article would help? It really is rather good.

    Whether or not it is a disaster remains to be seen.
     
  5. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I think it [the a-380] might already be a disaster for airbus -

    how many billions of euro's has it cost airbus (and the EU who has given them billions of tax euro's to prop it up) to develop and build, how many have they sold (made and have paid for) and collected on those sales? I would bet that if it were not for huge governmental subsidies this plane would never have been built. The question remains, what is the break even point and will it ever be reached --- my guess is it will never make a single $ for airbus -- and the pressure airbus is under to develop that next generation of plane to compete against the Dreamliner is enormous and that much greater because of all the money being spent (and lost) on the a-380.

    this kind of reminds me a little of the Concorde - great plane - i dont think it was ever profitable.

    my opinion is that boeings move to develop and build the dreamliner was a move of genius. given fuel costs, current air transportation trends (smaller, closer airports rather than just a few large hubs), its cost savings in terms of maintenance, the large volume of mid size jets operating in the world and the need to replace them, etc backs this up. most importantly the marketplace believes in it too - i think the backlog of orders on the dreamliner extends into the middle of the next decade!! the technologies developed for it i am sure will be passed to other boeing jets.

    if you had $1,000 to invest in one of the two companies, which one would it be?
     
  6. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    3,093
    350
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    They don't have as many bombs as we do.
     
  7. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2006
    4,519
    390
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    [SIZE=-1]"A380 burns 12 percent less fuel per seat than a 747
    —80 passenger miles per gallon"
    I agree the sinking dollar will kill it.
    [/SIZE]
     
  8. Pinto Girl

    Pinto Girl New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    3,093
    350
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Well, let's just say that, "If it's not a Boeing, I'm not going!"
    :)

    The A380 uses increased size to lower seat/mile costs, whereas the Boeing leverages new powerplant and airframe technology to do so. Couple that with uncertain international growth prospects for the next decade or so, and the smaller, more versatile Dreamliner is the winner.

    It's really that simple.

    Might I digress...?

    As far as the Concorde, what killed that plane was, primarily the lack of US sales. This happened when the results of USAF sonic-boom testing (which led to regs prohibiting supersonic overflight of the USA) became widely published, along with drastically increasing jet fuel prices (which played havoc with operational cost estimates done when Concorde was designed), and the growing concerns of the environmental movement.

    The world changed around the Concorde, as much as anything...whether the Consortium should have seen that is up for debate, however.

    But, if you've ever been on Concorde (which, I suspect, you may have), or even seen it fly --and you've got an ounce of aviation enthusiast blood in you-- for those brief seconds (or hours, if you were fortunate), it really didn't matter. Yes, it was cramped, and yes, it got a bit warm and stuffy as the flight progressed. But it's like asking how much it cost for Michelangelo to create a sculpture, or Raymond Loewy to streamline those Pennsylvania RR locomotives. It brought tears to my eyes, the way we were cleared for immediate takeoff...engines gulping fuel at prodigious rates, and threatening to overheat during taxiing...

    It's beauty in motion, and an absolute expression of the artistry in even the most arcane mathematical calculation, and of the vision of human creativity. And how form and function are inexorably intertwined. Whether the the manufacturers felt that way or not, however, is another matter...but that's the legacy, I think, this aircraft leaves us.


    Also, without getting too far into it, the aviation scene in the UK in the '60's was very politically controlled, on the verge of socialism, much moreso than in America...the marketing and design decisions made regarding Concorde sometimes had lots to do with politics, and not so much to to do with aeronautics. It was an odd time over there, in that business.

    I think your example would have been much better served by, say, the VC 10 than the Concorde, IMHO...

    Anyhow, back to topic; sorry for the diversion.
     
  9. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    10,664
    567
    0
    Location:
    Adelaide South Australia
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I think PintoGirl can see what your saying, the rest may have chosen to ignore.
     
  10. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Depends how many a-380's they make

    seriously now, and more to the point of this topic ... so they cannot be considered a true rival to the US as a superpower... seeing how they dont have bombs ;)

    I never flew the concorde - my brother did numerous times - and he loved it each and every time. I know it was a great plane, just not economically viable as a commercial jet. I wonder how much fuel it burned to seat per mile traveled :D

    Have a nice weekend.
     
  11. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    2,366
    4
    0
    Location:
    Bloomfield Hills, MI
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    As was stated earlier, before the sidebar bickering took over, superpowers come and go. The question isn't who will succeed the U.S. The question is when? Egypt was the superpower for, arguably, thousands of years. They were superseded by the Roman Empire which was the superpower for 2000 years and still affects the world at large. The U.S. has only dominated for a little more than 200 years so as as lasting superpower, it's still just a baby. Ultimately, the real question is 'will the U.S. as a superpower last as long or longer than previous superpowers?' The answer cannot be answered by modern people. It will be answered by future generations so don't worry, be happy. Read Gibbon; read Barbara Tuckman's A Distant Mirror; they'll help put things in perspective for you.
     
  12. WARHORSE

    WARHORSE New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    418
    0
    0
    Location:
    SoBe, FL
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    China, they are way beyond the EU today and rapidly catching up to the USA

    The EU is about as hopeless as the UN
     
  13. Hobbs

    Hobbs New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    80
    0
    0
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Don't make a fuss! Its got to be Airbus.
     
  14. Hobbs

    Hobbs New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    80
    0
    0
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Boeing's development of the 2707 SST cost US tax payers over a billion dollars back in the early '70s. No passengers ever flew in it. I suspect Concorde may never have recouped its investment but did make a profit.

    She was as beautiful on the ground as was in the air. I once saw 3 parked at Heathrow and saw her flying over London.
     
  15. Hobbs

    Hobbs New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    80
    0
    0
    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I think that the dangerous situation is when there is only one superpower. The question is how many superpowers are needed to be in existance concurrently, for a good balance?
     
  16. laurence_fowler

    laurence_fowler New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    18
    0
    0
    Location:
    Hampshire, United Kingdom
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    What has any of this to do with the Toyota Prius?
     
  17. Proco

    Proco Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    2,570
    172
    28
    Location:
    The Beautiful NJ Shore
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Nothing. That's why it's in Fred's House of Pancakes ... the off-topic forum. Don't like it? Don't read it.
     
  18. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Possible true except when they are diametrically opposed. I do not believe in the worlds history the lone superpower has been a relatively benevolent one like the US of A. Imagine if the Soviets or the Germans or Japanese had won their respective wars for worlds domination?

    A balance is important - a strong europe is important - it is my opinion that europe for the most part has failed to maintain its defense forces and its ability to protect its national interests for decades -- a necessity in order to fund its social policies. europe relies more on nuclear deterrence today than is should.

    the next decade will be interesting -- will europe start rebuilding its navies and air forces and armies to meet the threat from china and possibly from a resurgent soviet union? will it spend money on anti-missile systems to protect themselves from a nuclear armed iran?
     
  19. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    5,122
    268
    0
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    "relatively benevolent"? Is that how you describe our unjustified invasion of a foreign country and the installation of a puppet government there?

    Your idea of a superpower is one that can exert its will wherever it wants without threat of serious repercussions. Is that type of power ever truly "benevolent"?
     
  20. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    8,553
    18
    0
    Location:
    manhattan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    you really believe this?

    and for your second paragraph - the answer is yes - obviously.