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Corn Ethanol just got better?!?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tripp, Dec 20, 2007.

  1. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    This article discusses the benefits of Cogeneration of power and heat right at the ethanol plant. The energy savings can be substantial and in some cases there is power left over that can be exported out onto the grid. Corn ethanol still isn't a long term (or even midterm) solution but a lot of these efficiency tweaks will be beneficial for cellulose ethanol plants and the like.

    Full Aritcle
     
  2. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    Because, killing the environment is good for the environment, right?

     
  3. finman

    finman Senior Member

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    Yet another theory that will lose out until it's too late to say "told you so", even with a near 8,000 square mile piece of evidence. I'm comparing to the climate change naysayers. why isn't this kind of thing being broadcast...oh...that's right, all that corn subsidy goes bye-bye if we stop the craziness.

    On the plus side, if there is less seafood from this, demand for beef may go upand more cows can be fed with...yep...more corn! That's win-win for corn-growers. Yey, I just love the sarcasm.
     
  4. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    I'm quite aware of the problems of agribiz corn. You're preaching to the choir, hence my comments in the OP. Everyone knows that corn poses all sorts of problems, the dead zone being the most glaring, tangible one. The main point I'm making is that there are good things coming out of this, substantially lower CO2 foot prints are good and lower fuel costs (hence cheaper cellulosic/waste ethanol or butanol, even better) are good things.
     
  5. Darwood

    Darwood Senior Member

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    The dead zone is not a result of ethanol or even corn growing, it is the result of bad agricultural practices which would have occurred regardless.
    It will get better as the cost of fertlizers and pesticides goes up. Farmers will have to use less of the stuff and apply it much more carefully. Not all the runoff/pollution is from farmers either. Many cities dump waste in the river, and many non farmers fertilize along the river.

    The US produces SOOO much corn because of the corn subsidies, that business find a way to use the stuff, due to the low cost of it. Ethanol is just the latest attempt at a use for it. (Currently something like 75% of corn is consumed by livestock, not cars or people. Farmers will farm what makes them money, and looking forward, fuel seems to be the most likely need for consumers, so they are trying to come up with ways to meet that need. Corn is not the best crop for it due to the high input requirements, but the infrastructure for biofuels needs to be built and if the corn & ethanol subsidies allows it to happen, so be it. Someday, they will wise up and produce biodiesel and more efficient ethanol, and the plants will already be operational to do it. Someday folks will get really smart and develop a good mass transit system and electric vehicles, and all the biofuel will still be needed for things like home heating and possibly electricity generation.
     
  6. Mawcawfee

    Mawcawfee Prius-less (for now)

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    Improving the efficiency of ethanol production, presumably to displace gasoline, just boggles the mind in terms of net "savings". ;)
     
  7. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    Care to expound on that? You're leaving me hanging...
     
  8. brad_rules_man

    brad_rules_man Hybrid electric revolutionizer

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    They still left you hanging.. lol
     
  9. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Can someone explain the "corn subsidies" to me? I mean specifically the exact reimbursement numbers and who is eligible.
     
  10. brad_rules_man

    brad_rules_man Hybrid electric revolutionizer

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    Basically everyone is eligible, and if a farmer participates, then he agrees to sell his corn at a fixed, and guaranteed rate. It could be a gamble not to go with it, and it is usually a good price. Therefore, it doesn't matter what where the equilibrium is with price and quantity on the demand curve, the government will buy it, and any excess. I'm not saying it doesn't get more detailed than that, or that I support or don't support it. Just trying my best to explain it. However, I've been out of economics class for some time now.
     
  11. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Since I was raised on a farm, your statement stuck me as being somewhat off target. (Note-Subsidies are bad and the ripple effects of ethanol production will have many dark sides, so I am not debating the overall point.) Just to clarify:
    1) Most subsidy payments are legislated so that a very select group of targeted corporations get the vast majority of subsidy money. The vast majority of farmers and virtually all family farmers get nothing or next to nothing from the government. The subsidy game is set up to exclude the average farmer, not include them. (As my Dad once said, you can farm the land or farm the government. They are two different things.)
    2) The increase in corn production is 100% linked to corn demand and corn prices rising. This affects every farmer enough to focus on corn production. The major driver of corn demand increase is ethanol demand, which is a required additive of gasoline.
     
  12. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    If corn buyers are subsidised does that allow them to buy more corn? Does that increase demand? Does the increase in demand drive up prices? Does higher prices lead to increased production? Go back to the top of my post.
    While the government may not pay a subsidy directly to the grower, it gets there through the buyer.
     
  13. brad_rules_man

    brad_rules_man Hybrid electric revolutionizer

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    Well I agree, I'm not sure I presented that correctly. I'm not sure I can. I know what I learned in economics class, and I know what I learned when I signed up for the program. I worked for my Uncle, and now my Aunt as he's passed away. We went to an government office and signed up for a subsidized buyout. The thing was, they made us agree to a price, before we even harvested it. So we got a guaranteed locked in price. We could have done better, could have done worse. Anyways it was probably a completely different program I was thinking of. Sorry. =)
     
  14. zenMachine

    zenMachine Just another Onionhead

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  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Most of us that live near the gulf know about it, but are utterly powerless to do anything. Big Ag, that is the corporate not family farms have a grip on the politicians, and more environmentally sound farming practices would reduce its bottom line.

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/042.html
     
  16. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The subsidization of corn is over $5B/year, it is the most subsidized crop in the united states. There are two other things going on that are more important, there is an ethanol mandate that forces blenders to add ethanol, and a sugar tariff. These combine to increase corn production. Because of the sugar tarrif, high fructose corn syrup is cheaper than sugar and corn demand gets higher. This last little bit has moved companies that want to use sugar instead of hfcs to move to Mexico to avoid the tariff.

    The effect of the mandate, tarrif, and subsidy is to drastically increase corn demand. This has led to an increase in corn acreage and higher production. If one only looks at the price of corn they are missing how bad this system is. These tax policies leave less land for other crops and reduces their supply, so it raises the prices of fruits and vegetables. Since much of this new corn is not used for fuel and is supposed to be good for the environment, there is less criticism of the pesticides and the fertilizers used. Put together with the polution of corn ethanol its a lose lose proposition for most us citizens, but a win for some big Agricultural interests.

    http://st4tic.wordpress.com/2008/04...-and-sweetening-things-for-the-food-industry/

     
  18. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    I had one on my little toe. Am I eligible?

    Tom
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    The ignored cost externalities and/or subsidies of corn, fossil fuel, and plastics pretty much sums up the American problem.
     
  20. oldasdust

    oldasdust Member

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    All just foder and bla bla bla. Money and power = ethanol. If ADM wants it they get it. They find new ways to use corn and keep the illinois corn growers assoc. in the money. The department of agriculture is a bigger player and more powerful than most people realize. Buy a product for consumption that ADM does not have a hand in. Thickeners, soy, corn, how about high fructose corn syrup,alcohol, gasahol get the picture.