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What is the Bible?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by daniel, Dec 28, 2007.

  1. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I'm nearing the end of the Teaching Company's lecture series called The Story of the Bible. It's a very interesting course for anyone who wants to understand how this book came to be.

    Actually, it's not a book. It's a lot of books with intertwining histories, because different churches and religions use different versions. Different translations and different collections of writings.

    First of all, the Bible is a collection of distinct writings, produced at different times and places. The Bible of the Jews, which Christians call the Old Testament, is a collection of writings in Hebrew. It was translated into Greek (the Septuagint) and the Latin Vulgate was translated from the Greek, not from the original Hebrew. (That's how the prophecy that a young woman would bear a son got changed into a prophecy that a virgin would bear a son!)

    But it gets more interesting, because there are no extant manuscripts of the original any of the writings in the Bible. What we have are copies of copies of copies. And there is sufficient variation between copies of the same work that it's clear that the scribes made changes, sometimes probably accidental, other times probably on purpose, in the belief that they were making an improvement. Scholars have probably gotten pretty close to the original texts, but there is always uncertainty and controversy. Many of the extant manuscripts are fragments just a few inches on a side, and thousands of these are analyzed to try to decide what the original said.

    There are inconsistencies, not only within any given version of the Bible, but between versions of the Bible as well. This is not a static, fixed, and single document. It's an ongoing work as scholars and theologians revise their translations, their decisions about what writings to include and which to exclude, and their decisions about what the text of the original probably was.

    None of this makes a lot of difference if you view the Bible as allegory and as a testament to the faith of the writers. But if you choose to insist that every word of the Bible is literally true (as Martin Luther did when he set the Protestant Reformation in motion) then you face the real problem of deciding which words are the actual words. Which is even harder when you realize that not a single verse of the Bible exists in original manuscript form, and the manuscripts that do exist did not even have breaks between words, sentences, or paragraphs, so that the job of interpreting them begins with deciphering what the words were supposed to be, from a single, enormous, block of letters all run together, written by hand, and not always clear. (Chapter and verse markings are a fairly modern invention and are purely conventional, with no basis in any of the manuscripts. They are useful for reference, but bear no relation to the originals.)

    Just thought I'd open a can of worms before leaving for my snowshoeing and weight-loss trip to Canada. Enjoy! :)
     
  2. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    I just saw the Dead Sea Scrolls on exhibit at the San Diego Natural History Museum.

    I don't believe the story of how they were found either. Shepherd threw a rock into a cave? I don't think so. Not from the photos I looked at.

    Gee, Daniel. You didn't even touch on how the books of the Christian Bible were chosen (and excluded) and who did the deciding and why.
     
  3. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    How they were chosen was beyond the scope of my post. However, in the early days different churches used different writings as their scriptures, which eventually were gathered into collections, all different.

    There is no agreed-upon collection to this day. As I mentioned above, each editor or translator has made his own decisions. The Catholic Bible, of course, was compiled under direction of the church hierarchy. The KJV was compiled under the direction of King James. And they include different writings! Some Bibles have been compiled by individuals or private religious organizations. Some were more politically motivated: selected and translated to make a point. Luther, for example, had a strong agenda and picked those books that reinforced it. But it should go without saying that if you have a religion and you are compiling books to use as scripture, you are not going to include books that disagree with your religious views. Those would seem to you to be heresy rather than scripture.

    There are many ancient writings on philosophical and religious matters, and if you have access to them, you can compile a "Bible" for whatever religious views you hold.

    On the other hand, Paul invented Christianity, so if you want a Christian Bible you want to include everything he wrote. But the problem, and this is the point of my post, is that nobody knows what he really wrote because all we have are copies of copies of copies.

    How you choose what to include becomes less important when you realize that none of it is authentic. What we read is a translation of a translation of a translation, made from a copy of a copy of a copy. Which puts some perspective on the practice some people have of quoting an English Bible to prove this or that. It remains a testament to the faith of the original writers and the generations of copyists, but it has no real authority even if the original writings were inspired by god. The Bible is not a book passed down from the ancients to us. It is a collection of diverse writings which changes with every generation, and at all times exists in several variations which differ from each other in both scope and substance.
     
  4. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Hey, enjoy the snowshoeing trip. Watch out for the cougars. ;)
     
  5. Chris Nikirk

    Chris Nikirk New Member

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    And I would add that no one since the first or second century has been able to read everything Paul wrote because it's clear that many of his letters to churches are missing. If you read what is called 2nd Corinthians, Paul references a "former letter" or what is called "the terse letter" that was written between 1st and 2nd Corinthians.

    But what we do have in our hands (no matter which version or cannon) is a remarkable masterpiece of world history, and portrays a lifestyle to aspire to.
     
  6. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Part of my conversion to atheism involved actually reading the bible, as opposed to discussing selected parts. It would probably be banned if it were published for the first time today. Being Christ-like and interpreting the bible as the literal, infallible word of god are not at all the same thing.
     
  7. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    I think the word "bible" comes from "biblios", which literally translates as "library".

    What is called the "bible" is actually a compact collection of books or writings that fit into a certain topic, like a Law or Medical library would.

    One thing that I have found fascinating, is that the mainstream Jewish Torah is continuously interpreted by Rabbis, and their writings, the Talmud, is added as a commentary, given significant weight of consideration when making decisions concerning one's religious life (this is all based upon my observations back when I dated a Jewish man. Any errors are due to either misunderstanding what I was told/shown, or by getting wrong info through him. Please don't stone me).

    Since the current collection of writings was selected by Constantine and the Nicean council, in an attempt to unite an entire culture under one religion that upheld the divine right of kings, and was further used to keep the peasantry from uprising during the Middle Ages (the Reformation, and the literal interpretation -- present suffering will bring eternal rewards, don't try to step out of your station in life), it should not be surprising that those that wish to control the lives of others will fall back on quoting from this biblios.
     
  8. Banjoman

    Banjoman Member

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    Time and experience have brought me to the conclusion that the Bible is a book of verses that can be arranged in any order for a man to prove that God agrees with him.:)

    The first 35 minutes of this is very entertaining and informative about religion. SPOILER WARNING: Don't watch if you still believe. http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
     
  9. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    This is why I find the "lost books" of the bible fascinating. They're on my amazon list but haven't gotten around to ordering them. Money and life getting in the way. But I think it's great that the common people are now in a position to read everything out there and make their own choices. Much as Daniel suggested.

    There are the Lost books of the bible by William Hone, The Lost books of the Bible and the Forgotten books of Eden by Rutherford Platt, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English by Geza Vermes, but the one I think I'll start with is Bart Ehrman's Lost Scriptures: Books that did not make it into the New Testament. He also has a companion volume: Lost Christianities. If find it so interesting that Paul is in but Thecla is out. And Mary Magdalen is out. I mean...she was there. But I do get the question of authenticity. Still...the Bible is a very....manly book.

    I'm Lutheran but I've never taken the bible literally nor have I been taught to do so. So obviously Lutheranism has changed since Luther's time. And I have my own issues with Paul, so much of the Bible relying on Paul who was never a disciple. That's why the heresies and the lost books are so interesting. Reading what was deliberately left out because it didn't "fit with the program". (The decisions all being made by rich and/or powerful white men.) It would be interesting to see what choices would be made now given all that we have. What would stay in. What would be left out. After all, society and religion have changed a lot in 2,000 years.
     
  10. madler

    madler Member

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    It's sort of ironic that the bible itself is the product of an evolutionary process.
     
  11. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    I would like to post more, but I am sick right now. So more later.
     
  12. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    The Missouri Synod Lutherans still take the Bible literally. But Lutheranism, like all religions, has split into many different churches, each with its own vision.

    And there are still people deciding what to put in and what to leave out. You cited several in your post above. Those versions may not be accepted by this or that church, but they are as much Bibles as any other, and if they are well done may be accepted as "the" Bible by one church or another in good time.

    So you don't need to wonder what would be put in the Bible today: You merely need to take your pick and read the latest offerings. Or make your own decision and compile your own Bible.

    I was very amused when a not-very-intelligent fundi once told me that the KJV was the only version that was really the word of god because it was the authorized version. As if being authorized by the King of England had some deep religious significance. I suspect this guy didn't realize who it was who "authorized" it. But it is the translation preferred by some fundis, and it is a very good translation, except where manuscripts discovered later have provided better text, or where English expressions have gone out of common usage or changed their common meanings, rendering the KJV translation unintelligible to modern readers.
     
  13. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Oh, *those* Lutherans. When I was growing up, the MSL didn't go to the movies, dances or wear colorful clothing.

    ALC and LCA have merged. Not sure where the MSL people are.

    I'm so glad we aren't translating Shakespeare to make the meaning clearer, removing archaic references and cleaning up the gender specific language.

    "What a piece of work is humankind."?

    "Shall I live or die?"

    Just doesn't have the same ring.

    As for the KJV, I like the poetry of the language. It may be archaic, but so are lyrics to many of our beloved Yuletide carols. (I used to translate Deck the Halls for my students every year.) You can translate word for word or you can translate meaning. Idiom doesn't translate nice and clean. It's like translating song lyrics or poetry. Do you do it word for word and lose the rhyme, meter and images? Or do you take some liberties but keep the meaning and intent even if you're not using the same words? Then there's the problem of when you have no spaces between the words and no punctuation so the translator is interpreting the meaning and intent. No wonder all of the known texts are being translated again and again based on new knowledge.

    I personally have no problem with male pronouns being used generically when referring to large groups of people, but some do. Better that it says "people" then "men" so it is clear it is about everyone, not just male humans. I have a real problem with what has been identified as the pseudo-Pauline stuff remaining in the bible and "used" as if it were Paul. Of course I think there's way too much Paul and not enough of primary disciples in the bible. But then you can't have the bible suggesting you treat women with equality, now, can you.
     
  14. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    Do we as humans really need a book to tell us what is moral? I mean, if "thou shalt not kill" weren't a commandment, would Christians feel it were ok to kill?
     
  15. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Yes. Some do.

    Some already do, commandment or not.
     
  16. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    The difference is that we can read Shakespeare. Few of us can read ancient Greek and Hebrew. So you read a translation or you don't read it at all.

    Nothing an ever really be translated. Even a simple letter between closely-related languages. Translating Spanish to English, "su" can mean "his," "hers," or "yours." If the context provides no clear indication, the best you can do is add a footnote explaining the ambiguity. In literature not only the primary meaning, but the mood of a word are important, and there is seldom a word in the target language that conveys both at the same time. Or there are multiple meanings of a word and all are suggested, but none of the translated words carries the same multiple meanings.

    There's a movie about several transvestite men who transform a small midwestern town from a place of bigotry to a place of acceptance. At the end, one of them says, "Sometimes it just takes a fairy." I saw the movie in Mexico in English with subtitles in Spanish. They translated "fairy" as "hada," but "hada" does not have the secondary meaning of a gay man, so the humor was entirely lost.

    It's ridiculous to imagine that a book as deep and poetic as the Bible would not be crammed full of such layers of meaning, but a translation cannot convey more than the literal one. And then when morons decide, for no reason whatsoever, that this diverse compilation of poetry has to be absolutely literal without any hint of metaphor or allegory or humor, they blind themselves to all they're missing.

    What we read in English can never be more than a pale shadow of the original, stripped of most of its meaning, and of necessity sometimes even stripped of its primary meaning and conveying ideas that the original never contained (as when "young woman" becomes "virgin" because in Greek one word can mean both, and the Vulgate was translated from the Septuagint instead of from the Hebrew.)

    Don't forget the fact that in most earlier translations into English god is always "he," though there are more modern translation that eliminate that.

    Many (probably most) Christians feel it is okay to kill in spite of the commandment. The death penalty. Deadly force in the defense of property. War. And up until very recently most Christians felt it was okay, and even required, to kill other Christians who held to differing points of dogma.
     
  17. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    And now I must finish my packing. I'll be snowshoeing in some spectacularly beautiful country, with some yoga and gym work thrown in, on a diet of 1,200 calories a day of mostly organic food, all gourmet. I expect to have internet access but no time for more than checking my email. So I might not be on PC again until I get back.

    It's gonna be fun, and I'll come back with a little less fat on me.
     
  18. IsrAmeriPrius

    IsrAmeriPrius Progressive Member

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    The commandment in the original Hebrew text proscribes against murder, not all killings. There are quite a few forms of homicide, such as in self defense, war and capital punishment for example, that are sanctioned in the Bible.
     
  19. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    Correct.

    Perhaps. But mostly correct.

    I have said this for years. And this has got me in plenty of hot water with other preachers, believe you me.

    Also correct; this is why I have close to, if not over, 100 different versions.

    Correct again. Daniel, are you trying to pick a fight here? Because you are doing a lousy job of it.
    ;)
     
  20. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    I believe in the existence of the DSS, but not as to how they were found. Too convenient, if you ask me.