1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Saturn Flextreme

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Godiva, Jan 17, 2008.

Page 1 of 2
  1. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Yes, the Flextreme is another car and might go under other cars but I'm putting it here because my question is more to do with the environment.

    In reading an article about this car I come upon this:

    " Running on just electricity, the Flextreme is capable of driving up to 34 miles before the diesel engine fires up to pour juice back into the batteries. This range, GM claims, will enable many drivers to own the vehicle for months or years without ever traveling far enough to require the Flextreme's diesel engine to run during their normal commute, providing completely emissions-free operation."

    So my question is....exactly how long is the shelf life of the fuel GM proposes to put in the Flextreme. I ask because if a conversation my Dad and I had about a lawn mower. I was supposed to add some oil to the gas to run it. But....I had to throw this mixture out after a while because it went bad or something. I told him I don't want to deal with that; I'll never use the lawn mower often enough before the fuel goes bad and I'm not dealing with it. (This is why I do not have any lawn of any kind that requires mowing.)

    Now....The Flextreme is supposed to use an ultra-low-sulfur diesel. So how long will that ultra-low-sulfur diesel last in the tank if you don't fire up the engine for "months or even years"? And what about the servicing on that engine? How often will I be changing the oil on that engine that hardly ever runs? I mean, even if I don't use the engine enough to fill the tank, is it really OK to let the engine go for over a year without an oil change?

    Cnn on the Flextreme

    BTW if anyone complains about the bad rear view of the Prius, they should check out the rear of the Flextreme.

    Automobilemag on the Flextreme

    As long as we're talking about shelf-life. What say the Flextreme eventually is able to run on...biodiesel. But as is suggested above it's months or even years before the engine needs to run. What's the shelf life on biodiesel and what does *it* do sitting in the car for months or years without being used?
     
    #1 Godiva, Jan 17, 2008
  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,901
    16,125
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    YEah this is the thing that's at the back of my mind with PHEVs... If you don't use the gasoline in the fuel tank, won't it go stale? (hence you need...stabilifuel or sth like that)
     
    #2 Tideland Prius, Jan 17, 2008
  3. tballx

    tballx New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    130
    0
    0
    Location:
    Edmonds
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    My other vehicle is a 1984 Mercedes 300SD run exclusively on biodiesel. Shelf life is about 6 months.
     
    #3 tballx, Jan 18, 2008
  4. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Seems to me there's a tradeoff or point of not return or negative optimization or some such buzzword.

    There comes a point where you need to get rid of the gas/diesel engine altogether or use it more. The Prius uses it more. The Rav4EV doesn't use it at all. But as they describe the Flextreme, that may cause some real problems down the line.

    While I'd certainly like a plug in to extend my mileage, I don't want it to be SO plug in but LESS than EV that it causes me more problems than it solves.

    BTW my in regards to the little story, my choice was to use a push mower, get an electric mower or get rid of the lawn. I chose to get rid of the lawn. Good thing as I'd never have been able to push the mower after I hurt my back and couldn't really justify the expense of an electric mower for that little patch of grass. So disposing of fuel gone bad solved.
     
    #4 Godiva, Jan 18, 2008
  5. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    I hope these issues become very real. (Think about it.)
     
    #5 FL_Prius_Driver, Jan 18, 2008
  6. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    The petrol I use in my mower sits around for many, mnay months at a time. I don't add anything to it, yet it's never let me down. I live in a pretty dry climate, don't know if that has anything to do with it. As FL_prius_driver points out, it's a good problem to have.
     
    #6 tripp, Jan 18, 2008
  7. donee

    donee New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    2,956
    197
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Hi All,

    I am glad to see that GM is investigating offering the Opel Flextreme in the US as the Saturn Flextreme. As I just cannot stomach the Volt styling - it has no form that folows function. Whereas this car is all about form and function. Opel presented this car over the past several months, and there are designer interviews on You-Tube, in which they explain how the functional issues resulted in the form the car takes.
     
    #7 donee, Jan 19, 2008
  8. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    My previous car was a Saturn and I had very little complaints. The trunk space sucked and I was replacing the engine clips way too often. Three times in 50,000 miles.

    But the two things that worry me most are: That bar through the middle of the rear window resulting in two hatchbacks. And that Saturn is now very much a part of GM. So worries about quality are a real issue.
     
    #8 Godiva, Jan 19, 2008
  9. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    15,140
    611
    0
    Location:
    South Puget Sound, WA
    Vehicle:
    2013 Nissan LEAF
    Model:
    Persona
    there are additives that will increase storage time in your tank. obviously if this technology flies, fuel stations will have a dual purpose to collect old unused diesel (at what i would estimate to be 20 cents on a dollar as storage, handling, inspection of quality, etc would be added expenses)

    a monitor in the tank will tell you when you should replace the fuel and would start flashing yellow with 7 days left and go to red on last two days.

    no matter what, the technology is very workable and its leaps and bounds better than we have now.
     
    #9 DaveinOlyWA, Jan 19, 2008
  10. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    So, I'll be paying them $5.00 a gallon to fill my tank and $5.00 a gallon to empty it. Wow, no wonder GM is behind this idea.
     
    #10 Godiva, Jan 19, 2008
  11. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    15,140
    611
    0
    Location:
    South Puget Sound, WA
    Vehicle:
    2013 Nissan LEAF
    Model:
    Persona
    cmon!! you honestly think they dont have some sort of angle on this???

    gm is owned by big oil and they butter their bread better than anyone else on the planet with the possible exception of microsoft and the drug companies
     
    #11 DaveinOlyWA, Jan 19, 2008
  12. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Okay. So let's say the fuel is good for six months. And if you don't use it up in that time it will have to be drained (at owner's expense I'm sure) and replaced.

    Now, what happened to the stale/old/no longer effective fuel? Can it be recycled to be "fresh" again? Or are we looking at another disposal problem?

    This was my issue with my Dad's lawnmower. After adding the oil to the gas it had a shelf life. And I had to dispose of it when it got "old".
     
    #12 Godiva, Jan 19, 2008
  13. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    15,140
    611
    0
    Location:
    South Puget Sound, WA
    Vehicle:
    2013 Nissan LEAF
    Model:
    Persona
    good question, but i doubt that it would be much of a hurdle to make it something useful
     
    #13 DaveinOlyWA, Jan 19, 2008
  14. HolyPotato

    HolyPotato Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    92
    11
    0
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I would think more realistically you could keep just a trickle of fuel in the tank, and then if you needed to take a long trip top up and dilute the bad fuel, or every few months "forget" to plug it in and burn through and replace your liter -- something you may need to do just to give the engine a run to keep it in good working order.

    As my cousin would say "I wish I had that problem."
     
    #14 HolyPotato, Jan 19, 2008
  15. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    I think fuel stabilizers will make it last well over a year. Good problem to have and solution is pretty straight-forward.
     
    #15 tripp, Jan 19, 2008
  16. donee

    donee New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    2,956
    197
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Hi All,

    Well this car is a Diesel. And Summer Diesel and Winter Diesel are different. One might have to make sure they do not charge a few weeks of operation in the fall, so that the summer fuel is used up and winter fuel replaces it. Otherwise, startup in 10 degree weather might be a problem.
     
    #16 donee, Jan 19, 2008
  17. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    10,664
    567
    0
    Location:
    Adelaide South Australia
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Why wouldn't you just go for a long drive once every 6 months or could the car be forced to start the diesel by not charging the batteries allowing the engine to run say 50km a week and use a tank of diesel every 6 months? Isn't that better than a tank every 1 or 2 weeks? The diesel is there as a range extender of an electric car. People want electric cars but they don't want limited range. This is the car people have been asking for. If you think you will never need the diesel I don't know why you couldn't just keep 10 litres in the tank and use that every 6 months then put another 10 litres in. This would minimise diesel consumption.

    I know that the engine would have to run for about 10km each day on my commute as long as I only charge at home. If I could do my whole commute on electric and there was no range extender I wouldn't buy it because I couldn't take my family for a holiday in it or do some extra running around in it on my way home. That diesel engine is insurance and flexibility.
     
    #17 patsparks, Jan 19, 2008
  18. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    If I were in the above situation I would say take out the gas....and while you are at it, take out the engine.
     
    #18 FL_Prius_Driver, Jan 19, 2008
  19. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Nah, keep the petrol (or diesel) keep the engine and joy long range when you need it and massively smaller fuel bills the rest of the time.
     
    #19 tripp, Jan 19, 2008
  20. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    10,664
    567
    0
    Location:
    Adelaide South Australia
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Agreed.
    The only other improvement I can think of is a removable range extender module you can leave home when it isn't needed but a 5 minute owner install is all that is required to prepare for a long drive. The range extending engine could be replaced by additional batteries for longer electric range which you remove to install the diesel generator and fuel tank at holiday time.

    That's my 2c
     
    #20 patsparks, Jan 19, 2008
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 2