Prius Mocked for a different reason.

You have met one now...
I tracked my mileage using the same method I use now and filled my fuel tank the same way with my Prius as with my VW Jetta.

Interestingly, I didn't get any smarter when I sold my VW and bought a Prius. I DID become a better driver thanks to the instant feedback from the Prius.

Have you always been overly critical of people who don't drive the same car as you or did you develop that trait after you bought a Prius? (ouch)

 

Do you believe that you could get 59 mpg highway with the VW? Because that is what the claim was in the original post that started the thread. I think that claim is exaggerated.

 

have her actually track her mileage. most people tend to add at least 5-15 mpg to what they really get.

the ones that have instantaneous mpg readings tend to overestimate at an even higher rate

 

I have no idea what hypermilling could get you in a diesel. I don't believe that under "normal" driving a VW diesel would get 59 mpg.
If someone wanted to take various hypermilling techniques and apply them under ideal climate, my guess is yes, 59 mpg is possible.

I applaud the people here who have taken their time and resources to
1) improve their milage through various techniques
2) share that data and info with us so we might choose how far we want to go to improve our own milage.

I know that Prius owner are not the ownly group of auto owners in the US to "experiment" with things to improve fuel ecomony. I just don't know what lengths others have go to.

I also know that a 2006 VW Jetta driven like a bat outa hell avgeraged 46 mpg on my daily 100 mile commute.
If I knew then what I know now, how much better could that have been? My GUESS is 5-7 mpg under IDEAL conditions. That would get me close enought to 59 mpg to say it might be possible. (not likely for the average joe)

 

I once got 65 mpg, doing 50 mph, over 250 miles (one long trip), in my WV diesel Dasher. I think I might have had a tail wind, as well.

When I raised my speed to 60 mph, it dropped to 55 mpg (same trip, going home).

But, it was a small car, tiny little 1.5 lt engine, and had absolutely NO power. Oh, and the sound of the little hamsters screaming at 60 mph was enough to drive you mad.

And, it was diesel, so the exhaust smelled bad. In all respects, my Prius is a much better car.

 

Just keep in mind that even if you could get the VW up to the same mileage, the Prius would still put out less CO2, as diesel has about 15% more carbon per gallon. And that doesn't even get into all the smog emissions.

The VW probably can be driven to get it up into the 50s, but bear in mind a Prius can be driven to get 60s or 70s (or more) as some on this list do.

Rob

 

All the data is from the US EPA emissions tests. On the EPAs mileage website:
Fuel Economy
you can find the Underhood ID (under "show emissions details") that correlates to the EPA engine test number. In this case the TDI Beetle is 6VWXV01.9236, which indicates it was certified under the Jetta Wagon's testing. The EPA test data can be found here:
Annual Certification Test Results & Data | Cars and Light Trucks | US EPA

UK data for european models can be found here:
VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Home Page

I've posted a number of other examples, and more info about how I analyzed the data starting at this post and continuing over the next page or two:
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...clean-diesel-engines-coming-3.html#post551883

Rob

 

I agree.

With the turbo on the VW, gliding with the engine off as the Prius can do would probably not be a good idea. This would make getting the VW into the 50's much more of a challenge.

 

Well, I hope so but the jury is still out on that one. VW (or at least the VW faithful) has been claiming that the new CRDs will reduce emissions, improve performance, and reduce fuel consumption. I won't say thats impossible, but its very difficult to improve all three of these at the same time, particularly without making it more expensive and/or less reliable. There is not a lot of evidence to back up the claims so far, but we will have to wait and see. The fact that the new engines failed the emissions testing in 2008 at least casts some doubts on this corner of the optimization.

Jeep was one of the first out with a CRD, in the 2006 Liberty 2.8L CRD:

2006 Jeep Liberty 4WD CRD vs. 2006 Jeep Liberty 4WD Gas
CO2 (g/mi): 480.2 vs. 516.9 (7.1% lower) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0.7 vs. 0.5 (40% higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.5 vs. 0.04 (1150% or 12.5X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
PM (g/mi): 0.04 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children

The difference is even more dramatic when you compare it to a cleaner vehicle like the Escape Hybrid:

2006 Jeep Liberty 4WD CRD vs. 2006 Ford Escape Hybrid 4WD
CO2 (g/mi): 480.2 vs. 325.5 (47.5% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0.7 vs. 0.07 (900% or 10X higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.5 vs. 0.008 (6150% or 62.5X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
HC-NM+NOX-COMP (g/mi): 1.24 vs. 0.009 (13678% or 137.8X higher) composite of main smog ingredients
PM (g/mi): 0.04 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children

Hybrids 1, CRDs 0 in my book.

Next Chrysler offering is the 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3L CRD.

2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD CRD vs. 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD 3.7L Gas
CO2 (g/mi): 530.74 vs. 516.94 (2.7% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0 vs. 0.8 (inf lower) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.4 vs. 0.05 (700% or 8X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
PM (g/mi): 0 vs. 0 (even) asthma, lung development problems in children

Nice numbers on CO, and PM, but unfortunately CO2 is higher and NOx is still way out there. Again, more dramatic difference compared to a hybrid.

2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4WD CRDvs. 2008 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 4WD
CO2 (g/mi): 530.74 vs. 338.0 (57% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0 vs. 0 (even) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.4 vs. 0 (inf higher) Smog / Acid Rain
PM (g/mi): 0 vs. 0 (even) asthma, lung development problems in children

Hybrids 2, CRD 0.

The only other CRD on the market I know of is the Mercedes E320 Bluetec.

2008 Mercedes E320 Bluetec vs. 2008 Lexus GS450h
CO2 (g/mi): 387.85 vs. 382.09 (1.5% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 2.88 vs. 0.01 (28700% or 288X higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.165 vs. 0.01 (1550% or 16.5X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.0814 vs. 0.008 (918% or 10.2X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
PM (g/mi): 0.002 vs. 0 (inf higher) asthma, lung development problems in children

Kind of makes the Lexus look "green" doesn't it

Hybrids 3, CRD 0. Game, set and match. Looks like we'll have to wait until '09-'10 when the new VWs come out to see how the rematch goes.

Rob

 

I think that diesels are always going to have the issue with NOx because the production of NOx is related to the combustion temperature. To reduce the NOx, you would have to reduce combustion temps, which reduces efficiency and reduces the mpg.

Unfortunately, NOx is what makes the air dark brown over LA and other high population cities.

 

I agree 100%...hence part of the reason I switched to a Prius!

 

Yea, again I agree.
The story I heard was the CRD failed emissions. Not by much, but not enough.
Fuel efficiency numbers were quoted to me as 63-68 mpg hwy and low 50's city with no increase in cost over the 2006 model.

Not withstanding, I am a MPG guy. PZEV on the Prius is a great reason to own this car but, for me, it's secondary.
I would love to see a version of a hybrid/diesel. Tons of issues to work out but MAN, that car would GO!

SullyCC-I really didn't mean to hijack this thread...good luck making your co-worker eat crow!

 

Hi All,

Well, the thing was it was a Diesel Beetle that was getting 59 mpg on the highway. Check out this link. Aero Engineer Ernie Rogers gets 56.6, even with his well thought out aero improvements. So, its unlikely she got that unless she had a following wind situation for a whole tank full. Ernie's Aerodynamic Alaskan Adventure

 

A diesel beetle? 'Stink bug' sounds like a good nickname to me.

 

If you have a long commute, you have an advantage in getting good mileage - your warm up time is short compared to the total commute time. You just need to keep the speed reasonable.

In my case, I only have a 11 mile commute each way. Judging by the 5 min consumption bars, about 1/3 of my commute is spent getting the car up to temp, 2/3 is in the good mileage mode.

 

Wow MSCRMS, that is a lot of good data. However, your conclusions are a bit slanted (IMHO). Besides that I am surprised a the variability in emissions between the different diesels. How does Chrysler get 0gr CO from their 3L diesel? There are other anomolies too.

As far as my slanted comment, I am referring to your conslusions of winners when the difference is only off by a few percent. Also, you comment of the "infinite" difference between particulate emissions of diesels vs. gasoline engines. While the difference is "infinite" that is not really a valid way to compare the numbers. All of those diesels have technology to significantly reduce particulate numbers. They actual quantity of particulates emitted from those engines is pretty small.

As with every car there are trade offs. I dont think it is so clear that the hybrids are the clear winners in your comparisons. To some people the diesels might be a better choice.

 

A diesel hybrid has some attractive points to it. I suspect once the cleaner fuel is common and the new diesel engines are more commonly used, we will see some form of a two-stage diesel electric hybrid on the market.

Tom

 

My older brother bought a diesel Beetle in 2000 or 99. He got great mileage on it 55+ on the highway, which is what he only used it for since he's got a wife and 3 kids. But it was TERRIBLE in the winter, It wouldn't start half the time, Thats one of the reasons VW stopped making them. He ended up trading it in for a jetta. But any way, People who own beetles think there car is better than anyone elses, My Girlfriend owns one ( its the blue car next to mine covered in snow in my avitar) Even Beetle owners have there own Beetle sites much like this one.
I think Beetles are cool but I like my PRIUS a whole lot more.

 

I am not really surprised. There are big differences based on tuning, and how much emissions reduction equipment the manufacturer builds on. I assume the 0 CO on the 3L is a direct result of adding equipment to get rid of it. I have no info to prove that though. As a corollary proof, look at the emissions of a Prius and an rx400h. The lexus is actually lower emissions (ignoring CO2), despite its much lower mileage! I assume part of this is due to the Prius being older technology, and part because you can afford to put more emissions controls on a Lexus.

2007 Lexus RX400h vs. 2007 Toyota Prius
CO2 (g/mi): 338.0 vs. 191.04 (77% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0 vs. 0.1 (inf lower) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.01 vs. 0.01 (even) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.007 vs. 0.009 (22.2% lower) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer
HC-NM+NOX-COMP (g/mi): 0.02 vs. 0.03 (33.3% lower) composite of main smog ingredients

Another example of variation between manufacturers/models is the Chevy Malibu Hybrid/Saturn Aura Hyrbid vs. the Camry Hybrid. Similar sized cars, similar sized engines, both hybrids, and yet....

2008 Chevy Malibu Hybrid vs. 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid
CO2 (g/mi): 325.48 vs. 258.47 (25.9% higher) Greenhouse/Global Warming Gas
CO (g/mi): 0.6 vs. 0 (inf higher) Poison / Toxic
NOx (g/mi): 0.05 vs. 0.01 (400% or 5X higher) Smog / Acid Rain
NMOG (g/mi): 0.037 vs. 0.006 (517% or 6.2X higher) Formaldehyde & other VOCs, irritant, cancer

I disagree. In the first post of the thread, the diesel owner was claiming that their vehicle was a "Greener" choice than the Prius. In every comparison shown, the diesels are 16-288 times higher in NOx emissions, and worse in every other emissions category while still putting out more CO2 than the comparable hybrid. If the diesels put out less CO2, you could at least argue global warming vs. smog, but they are all worse on both. I agree the "infinite" claim is accurate but somewhat misleading. If I knew the minimum registerable value of these components I could say >YYY times higher, but I haven't had a chance to look at that. Still, given the choice between a small amount of something bad, and an unmeasurable amount I would normally go for the unmeasurable. There are also a lot of concerns that the particle traps in modern diesels actually generate a lot more <2.5um particles when they burn off the bigger particles. There is increasing evidence that these smaller particles are even worse for respiratory health. To be fair, gas engines also have some emissions in this smaller particle size, but much less as I understand. Unfortunately this emissions component is not currently measured or regulated.

I don't necessarily disagree, but if the argument is which car is greener diesels or hybrids, (which was the argument in this case) there really is no contest despite what diesel manufacturers want you to believe. I happened to drive by the Mercedes dealership this morning, and there were big signs out front proclaiming the arrival of the "worlds cleanest diesels!" While that may be true, they even make the GM hybrids look green

BTW, I am trying not to be defensive, just enjoying a good discussion. Based on the data, I am very worried about the environmental impact and air quality/health problems that a large scale move toward diesels would have. I would be very happy to be proven wrong, as I would like to put a TDI in my Land Rover instead of selling it.

Rob