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SERIOUS issues with my 2002

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by whyuh, Mar 8, 2008.

  1. whyuh

    whyuh New Member

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    Hi all....as you can see this is my first post and I am hoping ya'll might be able to help.
    Please, be patient as I am 'mechanically challenged' and the only way I know to go about this is to give all the details as they happened.

    I'm having what I can only assume is a SERIOUS problem with my 2002 Prius. At the very least, it sounds really bad to me. (Keep in mind as you skim through this...I drove the car 2 days before, approximately 50 miles round trip, with not a hint of trouble.)
    Yesterday, I had to make a trip and of course wanted to drive my Prius...got in, turned the key....cranks up, no problem. I put the car in reverse and back up...again, no problem, but I have now noticed that the CHECK ENGINE light is on(no other warning lights)...odd. When I put it into drive and mashed the gas....nothing. Ok, moved my foot and tried again....nothing. Suddenly, this horrible clunking (imagine the stereotypical cartoon car KACHUNKKACHUNKpopKADUNKshudder) and the engine dies.
    I crank the car again, try putting it back into drive, same response. Nothing when I try to accelerate and it shudders and dies. Ok, I have got to go somewhere...let's push the car out of the way so we can take out the gas guzzling truck. Wait...wouldn't it be easier to just put the car in reverse and back it out of the way? Sure! This time, it won't accelerate in reverse either. Put the car in N (did not turn the key off), push it back, put it in PARK and it shudders and sputters and clunks that horrible death not even in a gear! Now there are beeps and whistles and alarms going off everywhere, but not really telling me anything (IE no specific error message).
    Now my car is sitting in the yard like a sad blue dream that once was.
    Please...anyone with any ideas? I'm coming here first rather than my dealership because, well many reasons. The main ones being I'm a student with an expired warranty and no money. I just want to know if there is a place to start that doesn't involve a tow bill and a dealership planning to expand their store off what I'm about to pay in repair bills!
    As I stated at the beginning, I'm mechanically challenged but I know where to find help if I need it. Problem is, popping the hood on a Prius can intimidate some of the best mechanics I know so, I thought I would come to the experts first and see what they advised; but please...speak slowly and use the small words so I can relay the information to the ones with the tools!:D
    Thanks much in advance for taking the time!
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Sorry to hear about your problem, which I agree is serious. Which warning lights have come on besides the Check Engine light?

    It will be necessary to have the diagnostic trouble codes (DTC) read on your car. Once they are identified, we can provide advice about the likely source of your problem. Not knowing the codes, my immediate guess is that the hybrid vehicle ECU (electronic control unit) or the transaxle is at fault. The shuddering & sputtering is probably because your gasoline engine is trying to run but MG1 (motor generator) in the transaxle is not spinning to allow the engine to idle.

    If a non-Toyota code reader is used by your non-dealer mechanic, the reader may not be able to pick up all of the DTCs logged by the various ECUs in the vehicle. It probably will identify DTC logged by the engine ECU, which will be a start.

    Due to the seriousness of this problem I suspect you will need to have your Prius towed to your local Toyota dealer.

    Good luck,
    Patrick Wong
     
  3. rochesteruser

    rochesteruser Cruzin' in Rochester MN

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    When was the last time you changed the oil?
     
  4. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    Well, here's something you can do without popping the hood.
    Start it, and leave it in PARK, and watch/listen/feel carefully
    what happens. Make notes. Then, using this for reference,
    press the accelerator to try and get the engine to start up
    again [still in Park] -- if it does, quickly shift to Neutral
    and see if stays running. Describe your observations back into
    here. This will help determine if the problem is in the engine
    or the electrical side.
    .
    _H*
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'm in Huntsville AL. If you're anywhere close, I'd be happy to come take a look.

    I've got a 2003 Prius, the maintenance manuals, Graham scanner and have learned a few tricks from folks around the Prius forums. At a minimum, we could read out the error codes.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Some of my work: 2003 Prius
     
  6. whyuh

    whyuh New Member

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    The oil is changed regularly and has been since the day I purchased the car with 32 miles on it. This shouldn't be an issue, but...to be on the safe side, that was one of the first things we checked when the car klunked at us to begin with. :)

    I'll try this and see if I come up with any new results. Thank you.

    Mr. Wilson, this is an extraordinary offer. I'm not sure that I'm "anywhere close" however. Then again, we are southern and "a ways/a bit/and down yonder" could mean 5 minutes down the road or 5 hours! :p
    I'm about an hour south of Birmingham so...you tell me...is that too far out of the way? I understand completely if it is and my next question would be...have some friends in South Alabama? :D
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I need to know the distance. Perhaps a town? Montgomery? Troy? Brimingham is a day trip. Beyond Birmingham, I can do it if I can plan the trip so it is just a day trip (home by 10:00 PM or midnight.) If you still have transportation and can wait until the weekend, we can work something out.

    I do have to ask the obvious and also ask that you try one simple test. Gas, you have plenty in the tank?

    As for the test, potentially you may have a sticky throttle plate:
    Cleaning Prius Throttle

    See if you can move the throttle plate or have someone start the car while you watch to see if it moves. This is a fairly simple test and could lead to a very easy fix.

    Let us know what happens,
    Bob Wilson
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    A disconnected ignition or fuel injector wire transforms the Prius engine into (whatever that sound was you made) when it tries to run on 3 cylinders.

    Not a likely scenario unless you have been goofing around in the vicinity of those connections. That's how I messed mine up :drum:
     
  9. whyuh

    whyuh New Member

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    After speaking with Mr. Wilson, he suggested I post this here as well to see what ya'lls input might be as well. Again....thanks to everyone for their time and wisdom!

    [​IMG]

    Mr. Wilson;

    If you decide to come down, just let me know when and where, and we will make arrangements on our end. I wanted to bring you up to date on where things stand with the car right now though so...here goes.
    I have marked an arrow on the picture you used for the throttle cleaning walk thru. We did check the throttle plate today and it seems to be fine. What we did find however, appears to be a set of ground wires coming off that main wire harness (to the right of the air filter ) that is severed. They are white/blue wires, at least 2 maybe 3 wires, bolted to the right side of the motor. By the picture here, it seems to be a similiar hookup, so you might be able to find the bolt location I'm talking about by looking directly underneath/behind the wire harness I've marked on the photo. The harness itself seems to carry some wires to part of the fuel injection (found under the right corner of the air filter). I'm not sure if something has managed to get into the engine block and gnaw through them, or something popped up from the road with enough force and velocity to actually cut it (seems unlikely), but it does appear to be new since the wires don't even have dust on the severed ends at this point.
    Also, after using some of the cleaner on the throttle plate, we cranked the engine to try and let it idle. Being the one cranking the car, I noticed when I attempted to mash the gas peddle, there was no change in the idle and it felt as though it were just a dummy peddle, attached to nothing.
    From outside the car, watching the throttle as it was cranked, it didn't seem to matter if the throttle plate was wide open, or allowed to open slightly on its own, the car would only idle for approximately 15-20 seconds then suck for air and come to a shuddering halt.
    Yes, I realize that some of the symptoms I'm describing sound as if there is no gas, but there is just over a half a tank of gas in the car so that shouldn't be the issue at all. What does seem to be a problem is the engine actually accessing the gas in the tank.
    After talking to someone else they agreed that it does sound like it's a fuel problem, but 1) with all the electrical humming the car makes when it's cranked, it's impossible to hear the fuel pump cut on or off and 2) we're not sure how to test the fuel pump to make sure that is the actual problem.
    Any thoughts, advice, input with this new info?
    Thanks again for all your time!
    Take care,
    whyuh
     
  10. statultra

    statultra uber-Senior Member

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    it sounds like injector or air intake problem, my 01 prius i accidently disconnected the injector so itll startup run, then go bang bang bang progressively louder, then itll shut off, but itll still run if i press on gas.
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Thanks for the update...broken wires certainly could account for your problem. Can you repair the severed wires? If the air filter housing is in the way, you can remove it by disconnecting the mass air flow sensor connector and the clamps that hold the housing to the air intake snorkel and to the throttle body assembly. Then remove the bolts at the back of the housing and it should lift off.
     
  12. whyuh

    whyuh New Member

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    I certainly can't discount anything at this point, but I have to say what you're describing and what I'm experiencing don't seem to match. Mashing on the gas does absolutely nothing. In fact, the pedal feels like it is dead; just a dummy pedal there for nothing but looks. Now I know this is not the case as I drove the car just fine last week...but that's how it feels at this point.
    But thank you for taking a look and pointing out another possibility! :)
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'll have to look on my car in the morning to figure out what it might be. Looking at the electrical book, I found several 'white/blue' wires but not a bundle. Now if they were 'white/black' or 'black/white', we'd be in good shape since the ignition coils have these running to them. But it looks like I need to dig into my engine to see if I can find them.

    The injector to cylinder #3 is 'white/blue' but it would be a single. I'm going to have to trace it out.

    Rodent teeth.


    It is just a spring attached to a pair of variable resistors. There is no direct connection but just inputs into the Hybrid Vehicle ECU.
    When the engine starts, it spins under the motor generators for about 10 seconds before spark and fuel show up. The key is if the throttle plate rotates (very strong spring,) you're probably OK.

    The fuel pump is in the tank.

    This helps but I'm wondering if you might have a digital camera to take photos of the 'broken wires.' This can maybe help us identify them.

    If you feel comfortable with it, I would suggest removing the air cleaner assembly to see if you can get a better idea of what wires are impacted. Also look for little "raisons." Meanwhile, we'll keep watching the weather for the weekend.

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. whyuh

    whyuh New Member

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    Alright, I attempted to take some photos. You'll have to forgive the quality as I'm having to try and get to the wires with one hand and take pictures with the other....difficult at best.

    [​IMG]

    This one points to the exact location of the severed wires. You may be able to make out the copper (barely) showing. There is one wire completely cut/gnawed in two. Another is not in two pieces but the plastic covering has been nicked open.

    [​IMG]

    With this one I attempted to get a shot of the wires themselves. For the life of me I cannot get the wires turned far enough with the space I have right now to show the 2 colors. I did check them again though and it appears to be white with a navy blue stripe on it. Also, as I mentioned one wire is totally cut, one is nicked, and there does look to be a third wire that hasn't been touched at all. You can't really see the bolt that these wires go to, but it is at the tip of my top finger in this picture, and all the wires are going to it.
    Hopefully this will help a little more. We are going to attempt to remove the air cleaner assembly to see if we can get the wires repaired this evening or tomorrow. I'll keep ya'll updated.
    Thanks again for all the help!
     
  15. kocho

    kocho Member

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    Can't you just unscrew the ground hook and then you may have enough wiggle room to pull the wires back and solder them back together? Or use a crimp tool with the appropriate size crimping piece?

    I looked at mine and it is a tight fit but you should be able to use a socket wrench/screwdriver to remove the ground connection and then use a crimp tool or a small soldier on the wires...
     
  16. whyuh

    whyuh New Member

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    Alrighty....
    GREAT news!
    We managed to get to the wires today (without having to remove any assemblies by the way ;)) and the car not only cranked and stayed cranked....but I actually DROVE it! For several minutes I might add.
    We disconnected the battery to reset the computer and get rid of the check engine light...or be able to tell if there were additional problems if it came back on; which it did not!
    So, for the moment...all is well in my world. The car is running at 100%, as far as we can tell, and it didn't cost anything more than a couple of bucks, a good bit a time/energy, two sets of scraped hands, and a few choice words!
    Thank you all for your time and input! I really do appreciate all the advice and possible options ya'll offered. You all ROCK! :D
    Thanks again,
    whyuh
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Well done!

    See if you can get a Haynes Prius manual for a birthday or Christmas present. There is something about have a book handy that make it easier to crack open the hood and take a look. You've actually done more than a few mechanics I've known ever accomplished.

    GOOD LUCK!
    Bob Wilson
     
  18. SANJANA9411

    SANJANA9411 Junior Member

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    I have a used prius. When I bought it from a dealer three years back at 52000 miles within 30 days the car showed a warning sign and I ignored it and drow a mile or so when it Halted cranked and shuckled etc. i towed it to the dealer and he checked and said it was under warrantee for the Battery. The car worked fine period oil changes etc. I also got a recall on the battery and got that fixed.
    Recently a couple of weeks back the check engine light came on and I checked it out. It stated the Catelac converter was showing a low threshold. and also may need a turning since one cylinder was misfiring.
    I ignored this as the check engine light went off and my mechanic was busy.
    Now I had to pull my car into a packing lot as the monitor showed a waring sign which I am not able understand. It seems like the same warning sign I had three years back. So I have not attempted to fix the car. I hope I would be able to get a Cat Converter and replace it and get my car back on the road without any problems.
    Can anyone advice me on this. My mechnic is new to hybrid cars , however is an expert and the mechanism in cars and so I am positive he will be able to fix it. But I just thought one of you will be able to help.
    Thanks a million to the contributers on this site.
    San
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The first step is to get a read out the vehicle error codes. The dealer has a scanner that can handle this but there are some after market scanners that can show some of the codes. The best is to get the dealer to read out all of the codes and sub-codes. If you can post them here, we can help explain the options.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi San,

    My first advice is that Prius is not a low-tech device. If you continue to ignore its warning lights, you risk causing more damage to the vehicle as well as risking your personal safety when the car fails at an inopportune moment.

    My second advice is to take your car to a Toyota dealer who can retrieve all diagnostic trouble codes and find all of your car's problems. If your independent mechanic is not Prius-trained and does not have access to Toyota diagnostic tools, there is a reasonable chance that s/he will miss existing problems.

    Good luck.