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Viability of Project Better Place

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by sola, Apr 15, 2008.

  1. sola

    sola New Member

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    I believe Project Better Place (PBP) could have the biggest effect on the electrification of transportation. Although there was one post on this site about the project I thought some more discussion never hurts :).

    PBP is a company founded by Shai Agassi to make electric cars viable through the idea of the Electric Recharge Grid. The main points of the system:

    - People own only the car, the batteries are the property of the Electric Recharge Grid Operator. No need to worry about the cycle and calendar life of the batteries, this is the problem of the Operator. Comfortable electric cars can be made very cost effectively without the battery. Renault/Nissan has an agreement with PBP to develop and sell the first cars compatible with the Grid.

    - When you deplete your battery, you stop at a station of the Recharge Grid. The station automatically swaps the battery of your car with a fully recharged one. Batteries of the system will be able to power the cars for 70-100 km before needing a new swap. Locating swap stations when nearing depletion will probably be done by the navigation computer of the car, so the driver will not need to know where the stations are exactly. Swapping should be completely automated, the driver will likely only need to swipe their Grid ID card to initiate the swapping procedure. (or not even that if your car is tagged with a non-removable RFID radio)

    - The Grid will initially cover cities with a lot of stations so you can easily find one when the car warns you about the battery nearing depletion. Later on, the Grid will extend to intercity roads as well, so large areas will be accessible by the grid-compatible EVs. As batteries become more advanced, longer distances will be covered with fewer swaps.

    - Batteries of the Grid will very likely be heavily protected against higher-than normal discharge rates so nobody can shorten their cycle life. The Operator will have advanced monitoring and servicing facilities to achieve maximum cycle and calendar life of the batteries. E.g.: they will be able to detect cell problems in battery packs early, make the necessary cell replacements (just like Toyota does with our Prius battery packs nowadays) and put the battery pack back into circulation.

    - Originally, the system will serve only cars but nothing seems to deny the possibility to service trucks and lorries with the Grid (provided they are compatible with the system).

    PBP is now in the process of selecting the design and production companies for the swapping stations and are in negotiations with battery producers (A123 is one of them if I remember correctly).

    The first recharge grid will be installed in Izrael where the government will provide subsidies for the EVs (and possibly grants for the Grid Operator). PBP has also signed a memorandum of understanding with the Danish government recently.

    Some have pointed out that the Recharge Grid (stations and batteries) is quite an investment to set up. This is true but there have been similar things (e.g.: GSM networks) which needed similar or bigger investments and were set up nevertheless.

    Check out the PBP website if you haven't done it already!

    Apart from the upfront investment costs, I don't see serious weaknesses in the concept.

    I would definitely buy a small electric car (as a second car to the Prius) and use the Grid, if operating costs (e.g. electricity prices of the Recharge Grid) were close to their petrol equivalents. My usual driving targets are within my city (Budapest) and even our weekend holiday house could be reached with a 70km battery (there and back). The Recharge Grid would be ideal for me because I cannot install a charging station at home, so even if I wanted an EV, I wouldn't be able to charge it.
     
  2. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I suspect the upfront investment costs would be astronomical. The above statement is kind of like saying that "Apart from the fact that I'm heavier than air, I see no serious weakness in the concept of floating to work instead of driving a car."

    There's a lot of "would"s and "could"s in the proposal.

    A typical gas station on the highway probably has enough gas in stock to fuel several hundred cars a day. The above proposal would require all these stations to have enough grid service to provide that much energy, to continuously recharge that many batteries a day.

    But newer batteries have the ability to be recharged fast, so if the station has the grid capacity to deliver that much energy, the whole battery-replacement scheme becomes unnecessary. In effect, it's a solution without a problem. It looks to me more like a scheme to raise money than a serious attempt to solve a problem.

    Bottom line: You don't need to replace batteries if your batteries can be recharged fast, and the newest batteries can be.
     
  3. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    I've been saying that batteries should be removable and swappable for years. dangit!!

    Though since they are pretty darned heavy, I don't see the drivers themselves being expected to do the swapping.
     
  4. sola

    sola New Member

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    @daniel
    Some modern batteries can recharge quickly but those cost extreme amount of money currently (say AltairNano). The average Joe will never buy an EV for 20K AND a battery for another 15K especially not if the battery may handle 1000-2000 cycles only (max 5years) and then you need to replace it. They however, be willing to buy the EV for 20K and pay for the energy as they drive. The price of the energy will include the battery amortization but that is OK since it is not an upfront cost.

    The recharge grid could operate with older types of batteries too becuse a lot of those types can handle quick charge to a lower SOC. As I remember NiCd and NiMh can handle very quick charge to 80% SOC without damage (without reduction in cycle life). If you limit the SOC range of a NiMh battery, you can seriously extend its lifetime (see the Prius). And the range for the next swap may still be OK. The Nimh battery of the last EV1 was good for more than 100km. For a 40% SOC range you can still provide a 40km swap (once a day in my case) and the battery lasts for 10 years. And those batteries are much cheaper.

    Stations will not need to store extreme amount of batteries since they continuously receive and send/install batteries. Quick charging will help to minimize the necessary amount to be kept at the stations so I assume the battery pool should include modern types as well. (the faster you can charge, the lower the number of backup batteries will be benecessary.

    @Shaeffer
    Of course, the swap has to be completely automated, robotized. One cannot move a battery weighing 100kg or more.

    @general
    Some analogies with the GSM network. One doesn`t carry a mobile phone which is capable of transmitting throughout continents. Such a phone would consume a lot of energy be heavy...etc. Instead, your cell phone uses the GSM network so you need to transmit with a fraction of the energy only to reach the nearest base station (and pay for the carrier to use their network).This wayyou can use a small battery and miniaturized radio...etc).
     
  5. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    The jury is still out in this debate. I can argue either side effectively. I suspect swappable batteries will be a transitional technology, which if used, will be replaced by fast charging storage devices.

    Tom
     
  6. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Consider a gas station on the freeway. It has maybe 15 pumps and a car pulls in every minute. Now convert it to your system. First, the robot battery switcher is a LOT more complicated than a gas pump, so will need more redundancy. Plus a station with 15 pumps can continue to operate if several are out of order. Now assume you can put an adequate charge on an (older) battery in two hours. One car each minute arrives. You are simultaneously charging 120 batteries. This means you have 120 charging units and 120 complete battery packs sitting there all the time. Plus some extras so you can take bad units out of the line for repair.

    What I am saying is that solving these issues is more difficult than fast-charging where the battery remains in the car.

    And if ultra capacitors are developed then the whole debate becomes moot because they can be charged faster than you fill a gas tank now. I personally think ultra caps are a decade away, but some folks think they are a year away. Your scheme will take at least a decade to develop if we begin now, and I don't see anyone with the capital now. So fast charging looks like the winner again.

    The forward-thinking program being started in Israel is using fast charging, not battery switching.

    Now let's imagine someone has the capital to start this program: They'd be better off to loan A123 batteries to customers for free, and fast-charge them at the stations, than to build several hundred thousand robotized charging units for battery switching. They amortize the cost of the batteries with the price they charge for charging, just as in your system, but fewer batteries are needed overall and the cost of switching is eliminated.

    This may be my last post for a while. See you all when I get back on line.
     
  7. Wes Tausend

    Wes Tausend Junior Member

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    ...

    Very interesting concept. My thanks for your effort to give an EV grid some more thought and bring it to further discussion, Sola.

    I have a comment about battery location. I know many are already well aware of this but it is important enough to bring up again. I don't know much about current PBP plan.

    If the battery were to be quickly exchangable, it certainly must have a different and more accessible mounting than the Prius. It seems that even though the battery in a hybrid is smaller than that of a dedicated EV, most hybrids have struggled to some degree to find suitable semi-permanent storage. Space allocated under the rear seat by design seems to work best. But conversions, such as the Camry, already move the battery back and give up trunk room for even the smaller hybrid battery. Many EV designs tend to spread the batteries in more than one location, unfortunately toward either end of the auto.

    Therefore one of the downsides, to even the Camry, is that the heavy batteries are often moved back, or ahead, further from the center of rotation*. This is very undesirable from a handling standpoint. Once such an automobile begins to spin, it is more difficult to regain control and aim it properly down the road. Besides 50/50 balance, this is the main reason why mid-engined cars handle better, with the majority of weight centered between the wheels. This mass centered concept is even an advantage with locomotives which weigh about 400,000 pounds. The 5000+ gallon tank is suspended by centering it low between the wheel trucks.

    So, in view of this, it would pay to suspend a heavy flat-pack of batteries right off the bottom of the EV directly between the wheels. Exchange would mean dropping down and out with a forklift, or with a moderate (10 inches?) drive-up ramp, release straight down and the auto is moved ahead to a re-load position.

    The ramp principle would also allow at-home recharge battery exchange were that ever a possibility ...and I think it is. As an example, wind generators work better during the day when an auto is also in use. Solar recharge is definately daytime. I see it as modelled similar to choice of propane cylinder exchange-or-refill (Blue Rhino - Propane Tank Exchange, Grills, Heaters, Mosquito Traps, Fireplaces, and More).

    *In other words the angular momentum is increased. It is analogous to comparing a dumbell with the weights at far opposing ends of the handle as to weights slid together at the center. One can readily imagine that rotating the dumbell with the weights at the far ends will cause a greater flywheel effect than will the same weight grouped towards the center.

    Some folks have brought up some good points on how ponderous an exchange might be. It seems as though it could be as time consuming as getting an oil change rather than a fuel fill. How can it be accomplished more quickly, yet simply? Drive up and click in place?


    ...
     
  8. SpruceMoose

    SpruceMoose New Member

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    I think daniel makes a great point. Think about it this way: how many battery packs would need to be in circulation per vehicle to be sure that there's always a charged battery waiting for you at whatever station you visit?

    Say it's 2. It's a lot more than 2, but say for example it's 2. With some sort of fast charge, you could spend twice as much on each battery pack, and be even. Only now, instead of a robotic battery changer, robotic storage, and a car with an easily swapped battery, you've just got a charging station. So you've saved on infrastructure, vehicle design, and real-estate, and you can put charging stations in a lot more places (including gas stations, malls, workplaces, and at home).

    PBP requires a huge amount of capital tied up in idle batteries and robotic battery changing equipment, all specific to one company. And if the company goes belly up? You're completely SOL. Sounds like a great sales pitch for a guy to get some funding, but a lousy way to make the world a better place.

    -SpruceMoose
     
  9. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    This is hardly a new idea. Swap stations were discussed back
    in the seventies, I think...
    .
    And you keep saying "see the website", without providing any
    reference as to where it is.
    .
    _H*
     
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Project Better Place
     
  11. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    Swap stations have not only been talked about the electric cars of the early 20th century relied on them. "The Electric Vehicle and the Burden of History" is an excellent book that details the golden age of electric vehicles and the business models of the different companies. Most of these companies developed networks of battery swapping stations around a specific city.
     
  12. sola

    sola New Member

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    I tend to agree that the capital for batteries may be too high for the battery swapping system.

    By the way: Here is a video about the swapping process (an earlier AutoBlogGreen article): Video of Project Better Place's battery exchange system - AutoblogGreen

    It seems after all, that PBP imagined a mix of the recharge stations and the swaping stations so probably they could service both kind of cars.

    If we take the idea of quick charging we still need a recharge network for running the EVs because with that we can downsize the batteries and extend the range one can cover with the EV. If you can recharge often, you would need a smaller battery in the car (lower weight, higher efficiency and of course lower purchase price). Even a 30mile EV may be acceptable for city use if you can recharge it almost anywhere and very fast.