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G1 traction battery shelf life?

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by klodhopper, May 13, 2008.

  1. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    Does anyone know how long a totally charged 1st generation battery pack can be stored without totally losing it's charge?

    We recently ran across a front end collision casualty that had a good battery pack in it and purchased it for a really good price. I haven't had any problems with our pack as yet, but we are now over 104K and may look forward to problems in the future. We look forward to storing it for a while, and could use some pointers.

    If we have to, we could swap out the pack with ours ever so often...an actual afternoon job, if it came to it. It's not a very technical, just a little bulky to get in and out without 2 people. We removed the one we bought in about 30 minutes with no problems at all.

    We've searched the forums for a solution to a HV "maintainer", but it looks like there are currently no options available. Has anyone explored this option further, or have we all opted to just get one when we need one?

    Is there a cut-off for the voltage on the pack that would be usable to determine the necessity to install it and recharge it, or should we consider just changing them ever-so-often to keep them both topped off?:confused:
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I think it would be a good idea for you to swap the salvage battery pack now, so that you can confirm that it actually works. Also, how do you know what charge level the salvage battery held when it was removed from the donor vehicle?

    Toyota has a TSB on battery maintenance, which suggests that hybrid vehicles should be started every two months and left in READY for 30 min to charge up the traction battery.

    If you have a power supply that can provide ~320V at 0.3A, then you can try bypassing the system main relays to charge the battery pack directly. However this can be dangerous if the battery pack overheats, as the modules may explode.
     
  3. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    The battery pack was all but fully charged when removed from the vehicle. I haven't removed the battery ecu from the end of the pack yet to get to a point to be able to check voltages as it is being stored. Yes the battery was "hot" and the 12v battery was jumped in the vehicle to verify mileage and state of charge. I guess the best way to use this battery pack is to install it and run it as it is, correct? I'll still be facing the same problems with my old pack when I install the salvage one, that is, how long can the pack be stored without it getting too low to start the ICE? Where can I effectively access a test point to monitor the battery pack's condition through storage, and what criteria should be used to maintain them both in a good shelf-stable condition?
     
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    klodhopper, you have already done the HV battery assembly removal and know the job. If you decide to measure voltages or do charging outside of the car, a very different set of skills would be required (and I don't claim to have them). I suggest that you are a perfect candidate to HV battery 'swaps' on 6 month intervals or so. When you install the other, get into 'ready' and set the parking brake and push both the other pedals to the floor in "D" or "R". Then you will be force-charging, and will top off the HV in 5 minute. 15 minutes. Something like that.

    Store the battery as fully charged as possible. Very early Prius speculation was that self-discharge takes 6 months. We really don't know. You, as a battery swapper, could fill in some knowledge gaps by seeing what the battery charge display says after 6 months or other experimental periods.

    Anyway, self discharge rates increase with temperatures. How big is your refridgerator?
     
  5. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    Refrigerator?...I think we live in one...here in the Mtns. of Colorado. Doesn't get too hot here, gets over the century mark every 2-3 years or so for a day or two. That said, I suppose it should shelf pretty good here. I do see the logic of exchanging the packs every 6 months.

    I suppose we wouldn't worry about our pack that we take out if it's fully charged. We'll take a day in the future to swap the packs out and go from there, maybe even keep a chart on battery condition on a weekly basis and find a comfortable test point to monitor the battery voltage. I just want to be prepared for a big ticket repair before it happens since the vehicle is over 100K and out of warranty. The current pack seems to get a real workout here in the mountains, and I'm concerned for not only the mileage the current pack has on it, but all the deep-cycling that it's been doing. 1st Generation packs are getting expensive, and we had to take advantage of getting while we could. I actually will look forward to cannibalizing the 2 packs and possibly building one good one later. The rest of the car seems to be doing great so far. It seems to be a real test on the technology here, even as a 1st generation Prius. I'm just trying to keep the "baby girl" going as long as possible while gas prices are high and can't afford a new one yet.

    Appreciate the help... :)
     
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Yes, I also noticed that salvage Classic battery packs currently seem to be going for ~2/3 of a new battery, which seems outrageous to me. This is evidence that out-of-warranty failures equal or exceed the number of Classic Prius that are being totaled due to a severe accident.

    What was the odometer reading and model year of the donor vehicle?

    I agree that mountain driving will stress the traction battery more than flatland driving. I live at 1,100 ft elevation and commute to sealevel. Out of three Toyota hybrids, I have lost two traction batteries so far: the 2001 traction battery died at 60K miles while the HiHy 4WD-i battery died at less than 30K miles. The 2004 battery has been OK so far, at 51K miles; but I note that it frequently shows eight green bars of charge, and I don't know whether this is a leading indicator of a future problem...

    Regarding periodic tests, you would probably have to open the case to measure the module voltages. As I previously mentioned, Toyota's conservative advice is to recharge the traction battery at least every two months. You may choose to do the battery swap at longer intervals, in which case you'll be entering uncharted territory.

    One issue that would be worse than a traction battery failure would be a transaxle problem. The occasional Classic will suffer such a failure; I'd suggest that you change the transaxle fluid periodically (say at 30K mile intervals), in an effort to prolong the life of that very expensive part.
     
  7. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    The donor vehicle was a very well kept 2003, with 58K, just used around the Denver area.

    Yes, there are some "predatory" junk yards selling on flea-bay for $1500-$1600 for these packs with almost the same mileages as the one I bought. They always make you feel you're being done a favor as well.

    I have recently noticed a lot of 50Wh markers popping up more than usual, and have gotten suspect of the pack. Although, there are 6 ways out of our high Mtn. valley here, and only one is somewhat downhill. The rest is over Mtn passes of 10K+.

    The transaxle oil is scheduled for replacement this month, as soon as I can get parts from our local Toyota dealership which is about 90 miles from us. I'll change it myself, just a small job as well. Just been polishing up on the finer points of changing the oil and cleaning the pan and checking the residue for any "extra parts". Have a parts list for ordering already. Most all of our other vehicles are high mileage as well, but as a 30 year veteran of bruised knuckles, I look forward to keeping her in good shape.;)
     
  8. rapidroy

    rapidroy New Member

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    Hi everybody, I am new to this forum, been a mech tech all my life about 60 years, I am 67. Just bought a 2001 Prius with a (Toyota says has a bad drive battery). cell# 18 bad. Code P3006. Has aneybody out there ever tried to change a bad cell in one of these batteries? I am considering taking the lid off the battery and looking for a corroded terminal or loose connector. I know about all the warnings on high voltage and wouldn't recomend aneybody trying it without experance working with high voltage. I worked in a missle battery shop back in the sixties and we rebuilt the high voltage missile batteries. Changing bad cells etc. This car also has the stalling problem. The previous owner ( I am not in possion of the car yet, but the check is in the mail and I will haft to get it shipped). Says twice while going about 55miles an hour the car seemed to go into neutral, so I puled over and restarted the engin and then it drove fine again. Aneybody had a problem like this and found the fix? Seems to me the shifter switch could be bad or a relay is droping out. However I have absulity no experience with Hybrids. Dose aneybody have any help for me? If so thanks in advance. Racing Roy (I also drive a race car on dirt tracks.)
     
  9. Optimus

    Optimus Member

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    klodhopper,

    can you describe the removal and re-installation process of the battery? I have yet to read a post about anyone actually swapping the battery themselves. If my battery ever goes, I will want to attempt swapping it myself too.
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi Roy,

    Yes, you are on the right track by opening the case and looking for electrolyte leakage and bad connections. DTC P3009 would be evidence of a leak that is bad enough so that the traction battery voltage is leaking to ground.

    You will probably find that the module #18 needs to be replaced, which can be verified by measuring the voltage of each of the 38 modules. Then you'll have to find a replacement module, which will not be easy since salvage Classic traction batteries are scarce. Bob Wilson is a regular on PriusChat, and if you contact him via PM he may be willing to sell you one or several salvage modules.

    Also note that if one module has failed, other surrounding modules may be subject to near-term failure due to likely overheating of the failed module that would affect its neighbors.

    The other issue that you mentioned about the car going into Neutral is more troublesome, especially if warning lights do not appear to show that a DTC has been logged. If no trouble code is logged, it will be difficult to diagnose the problem. My guess is that the hybrid vehicle ECU is being flaky.

    I hope that you did not pay much for this car that has two serious problems.
     
  11. rapidroy

    rapidroy New Member

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    Mr Wong, Sounds like you know a lot about these cars. The info you gave me will be very helpful in what I am going to try to do, fix the battery problem. The owner didn,t mention if the computer set a code when the car stalled. I will know more when I get the car and drive it. I will wate untill I check the voltage on all the modules and try to contact Mr Wilson about some modules. If aneybody has a whole failed battery they want to sell, I am interisted. Maby I can use two bad ones to make one good one. Contact me at [email protected] email is best as I have a hearing problem. Maby we can get some repairing going for other people. I am kinda old to be starting a buisness, but someone with the knowledge might want to. How might I be able to contact MR. Wilson? Is there an email address for users or a phone number listed on this site somewhere. Thanks again Roy
     
  12. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi Roy,

    Do a search for bwilson4web. When you find one of Bob's messages, click on his username. A drop-down menu will appear, and one of the choices will allow you to send him a personal message.

    Bob is doing pioneering work in attempting to rejuvenate worn-out traction battery modules, which is especially important for Classic since so few salvage batteries currently are available. Hence he acquired a few salvage traction battery assemblies for experimentation and may have a few good battery modules for sale.

    Since you say that you have no prior experience with the Toyota hybrid system, I strongly suggest that you obtain the repair manual documentation for your car so that you can learn about the hybrid system and also learn safe handling for the traction battery assembly. You can buy paper manuals for ~$300, or you can access the Toyota subscription website and download repair manual pages: techinfo.toyota.com

    You can also access free Toyota technical training docs at autoshop101.com I strongly recommend this website to give you an overview and help you understand what you are getting into. The Prius design is quite different from a conventional automobile!

    Good luck.
     
  13. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    Actually, it's quite easy. This only applies to a 1st Gen, 2001-2003 only.

    To remove the traction battery (encased), disconnect your 12v battery.
    (L/side of your trunk)
    Remove the rear passenger seat cushion bottom as you would most any other car feeding the seat belt receptacles back through the holes in the seat and setting it outside the car.
    Remove the rear seat back by removing 3 bolts on the bottom of the cushion sliding it straight up and remove it from the car as well, looping the seatbelts enough to get it free.
    Inside the trunk remove the carpeting from the hump in the front of the trunk, and both left and right side curtains as well. These are held in place with plastic panel pins and can be removed with a door panel removal tool, or with a pair of long-nosed pliers with something used as a fulcrum.
    Remove two bolts and two screws holding the L/side fan housing to the battery pack, and remove 2 bolts holding the fan housing onto the fan assy, and set this assy out of the way on the left side of the trunk. At this time cover the existing hole on the battery pack with something like duct tape, or other material so that nothing gets into the open cells in the pack. Please take special precaution not to allow anything foreign to drop into this open area before you get it covered. The intake housing on the right side of the pack is removed by 2 upper bolts, and two lower ones, and can be set out of the way on the right side of the trunk.
    There are two multi-connection plugs, and one single wire connector on the left rear of the pack to disconnect, and you may elect to remove the orange fuse link (just for safety) just above the multi-connection plugs.
    Now you can remove the bolts holding the pack in place on the front, rear, and two upper web braces on both left and right sides on the front of the pack. You will need to remove the vertical braces from the seat back as well.
    Now you can disconnect the two orange cables on the front of the pack(held on by a single bolt). This connection can only be hot if the internal relays are activated, but don't take anything for granted. I recommend covering this corner of the pack with duct tape as well when you remove the cable connector, just for safety's sake.
    Then find a friend willing to help you pick up the pack and bring it out one of the side doors.

    Install in reverse order, paying special attention to the initial boot-up procedure required as you would replacing the 12V battery. The whole job should only take about 3-4 hours with power tools, and use parts trays and mark things that you may forget. Hopefully your donor pack is holding enough charge to start the ICE. It will take some time for the vehicle to regain it's fuel trim settings etc, but hopefully everyone survives. This is all I can tell you as of now, and if you're not comfortable skinning your knuckles, or attempting more than an oil change, then this job should be left to professionals.
    As of yet, I haven't started tearing into a pack, but I myself feel comfortable doing so when the opportunity affords me as I've been a wrench, and a bench tech for many years. I look forward to possibly combining the two packs I have into one last usable one if it comes to it.

    I say again, if you don't feel comfortable doing this, don't attempt it. It's not for the average "Joe". If you have some mechanical/electrical experience (and healthy respect), go for it. That's how we all learn.:D
     
  14. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Good procedure.

    Note that the Toyota repair manual suggests waiting 5 minutes after the car is IG-OFF before contacting the battery cables, as it takes that long for the capacitors in the inverter to discharge.

    As soon as the traction battery assembly is exposed to view, I suggest removing the orange fuse interlock link. This will break the circuit between the 19th and 20th modules and will provide a measure of safety as the traction battery assembly is being removed.

    I also suggest using a voltmeter to ensure that no voltage is on the orange cables, when measuring between the connectors as well as between each connector and ground, before disconnecting the cables. Yes, there should be zero voltage present if the system main relays are working, but how do you know that a relay is not stuck in the closed position.
     
  15. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    Hi Roy, Welcome to the Priuschat forums. I'm semi-retired and 58 and have a similar background as you. Yes your code P3006 certainly is a battery pack problem, and I see you already have cell #18 isolated as the problem. I am embarrassed to admit how much we paid for our pack we just bought, but shop locally, and be patient. You still have a chance of picking up a spare pack reasonably, before you will find someone to sell you one cell, or replace just one cell. NIMH cells must be almost perfectly matched to the ones remaining to get the pack up to operating specs for any length of time. The high voltages the packs run with and the amount of discharge load the packs operate at makes it critical to the cells being balanced at all times. One of the very reason why I'm electing to do a swap every so often to get the most out of both packs I currently have. On down the road I hope to be able to have possible matches with the two packs to allow me to keep at least one of them going. I went and "Googled" local salvage yards and checked their stocks online until I found something I wanted. You can still find Packs for @ $500-$850 if you look and be patient. There are "predatory" salvage yards that hang out on flea-bay...steer clear of them. Always elect to have the car powered up as well to verify mileage, and to verify the traction battery's state of charge before you consider purchasing it. B. Wilson has charged/rejuvenated cells separately till the pack is balanced and charged. If the pack is totally depleted, less than 20%, it wont start the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine), as the Main Battery Pack (NIMH) is what starts ICE, not the little 12V battery. If the Main Battery Pack (G1) is below 20% Toyota will have to charge it for you (another whole story as well). Lots of good reading here on these forums. Take time to use the search, grab a cup of coffee, and learn. I've lurked here for a while now, and I still consider myself just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, but I still find valuable information every time I come here! :D
     
  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Here's a question for anybody (Bob, more'n likely) who's had the traction battery apart. How are the sensing busbar modules - the ones on one side that bring the intermodule voltages to the ECU - constructed? Are the wires to the ECU just directly connected to the corresponding bus segments, or are they connected through integral limiting resistors of some sort (what resistance?) or even electronics of some more interesting sort?

    -Chap
     
  17. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    I hope this helps a little...I ran across this Toyota training PDF on Hybrid battery control systems, and it may answer a few questions for you. The individual cells are connected to the ECU through the two multi-connection plugs just under the orange fuse link on the rear view of the pack viewed from the trunk, and the only resistor in the pack is on the 2nd main voltage relay and it's used to absorb shock to the system.
     

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  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Hi KH,

    That is a good document, but I'm not sure it isn't just describing the battery from an external-connections standpoint. The pictures in the SSC 40G resealing instructions make it look like the busbar Vsense harness attaches to connectors on the /front/ edge of the ECU (the one you don't see with the battery cover on), which would be good design for safety anyway. I notice also the electrical wiring diagram gives connector designations (B17, B18) for the ECU connectors that interface to the rest of the vehicle, but not for the internal ones to the busbar and thermistors, even though it shows them. I don't know more than that because I haven't had a look-see with the cover off; maybe somebody will chime in who has.

    I know the only resistor I've seen /mentioned/ is the one in the SMR but I'm not sure that's conclusive about internal construction details like the busbar. If /I/ were designing it I'm pretty sure I'd build resistors into it, because the Vsense lines should only be going to hi-Z ADCs anyway, and they're skinny wires that would otherwise be incendiary devices if nicked.

    -Chap
     
  19. rapidroy

    rapidroy New Member

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    Hay klodhopper, Thanks very much for the info. The pdf site was very informitave. I am sure you need to treat this battery like it is 440 volts ac, verry dangerious stuf. along with the high voltage gloves and gogles, I would add a wooden work bench with rubber mat on top and a rubber mat on the floor and rubber soled shoes, rubber apron. full face shield at the least and aney thing else you can think of to not ground yourself. You said you need a 20% charge, will this amount start the car? I assume that to be about 60VDC. I didn't see that answer in the pdf. I just found and bought a 02 drive battery from a salvage yard in Alabama to be shipped out today. They say the battery has 107 miles on it, this sounds like they have had it for a long time and it is probably dead or low on charge. I currently have a 50VDC veriavale power supply 1.5 amp. I think I could charge at least four modules at a time. I have took two computer batteries and changed out one or two cells to make one good battery and that worked. Hopefully it will have enouf charge in it to start the car. I paid $500.00 for the battery. I have a thought, don't know if it will work or not, would like to hear what everybody else thinks, don't know enouf yet. If the car is suppost to charge the drive battery in the cost mode with the brakes applied, and every thing else is on, could the car be towed down the road with slight brakes applied, would this charge the drive battery enouf to start the engin??? Just a thought. Farmers Fix
     
  20. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    The thought is a proper one in most instances, but I don't think it will work. The car will not shift into neutral or drive unless the ICE is already running and it states on the display"ready". There are very few tow points on the car as well. Maybe someone else can chime in here that can verify that.
    You did good on your price for the pack, congrats... Seems like anything with the "hybrid" designation in the name has acquired the same meaning as buying a starter for a Cadillac that also fits another cheaper car and jacking the price up 3X. We've all been there before. It's getting really predatory.
    I would recommend a value closer to 40% to be safe, but most media has the value at 20% minimum charge for the pack. Remember, you'll have to get an initial charge in the caps in the inverter as well, and hopefully 20% is enough.:D