ANWR, the last pristine wilderness. Oh really?

me me me me too...still havent said where u got that pipe..lol..

 

And it isn't just money. The pollution "cost" of extracting that oil is also way above that of the "easy" oil. But as you say - it is only the money cost that drives this.

 

To avoid reinventing the wheel, I transfered this from another thread! I get tired of writing the same stuff over and over again.

Originally Posted by Fraser
If environmental disaster is an argument for not searching for oil, then shouldn't the effort be made to stop all drilling -- now, to prevent the possibility of such disaster? If that is a valid argument, then environmentalists should immediately cease to drive, cease using appliances that derive from oil, and cease any effort based on using oil.
There is a huge difference between bore holes and strip mining. Bore holes and their technology may not be very pretty, but the impact is compartavly benign. Contrast that to the strip mine of the Tar sands. Huge earth moving, huge amounts of water, and lots of contaminated tailings. Do a bit of searching around to see what I mean.

Fort McMurray: The Tar Sands | The Dominion
Fort McMurray: Tar Sands from Space | The Dominion
Woodland Cree Challenges Shell Tar Sands Expansion--Seeks to Prevent Another Ft. McMurray Disaster | Oil Sands Truth: Shut down the Tar Sands
Aida Edemariam on the environmental impact of the tar sands of Alberta in Canada | Environment | The Guardian
http://www.tarsandstimeout.ca/index2...do_pdf=1&id=38



I think that is enough for one post!
It aint pretty!

 

Not to mention, although I've mentioned it countless times before, plugs can sell back to the grid at times of peak demand, reducing the need for the most wasteful energy of all: That is the spinning idling capacity that must be on line waiting for the next light to turn on. Additionally plug ins can serve a a huge (assuming a significant number of them) battery bank to make solar more viable over 24/7 and cloud events.

Icarus

 

I am truly speechless that you would actually use such a low class, I dare say bigoted, comment to even try to justify your point of view. :faint:

 

dont be, amped is special, took the little bus i've heard

 

Producing hydrogen from oil is not cost effective (long term) - this is what is proposed by oil companies. The oil should be refined into more valuable products. Instead, produce hydrogen by splitting water (photovoltaic cells + sunlight + water) - a slow trickle process but extremely productive. Results in oxygen (O2) and Hydrogen (H) being produced. Ocean or fresh water can be used. Hydrogen produced from water is a sustainable process. Hydrogen produced from oil is a one time process.

 

You know what guys, the whole reason they (oil industry) have us by the tailpipe is because over the last 100 years we encouraged (favourable laws), nourished (tax breaks, subsidies) and singularly let them lead the way to a monopoly of energy for transportation. Now we are mad at them? Paahlease, you can't fault them (as much as I hate saying this) for making profits, we gave them the monopoly and now we have to deal with it.

If there were other fuel alternatives, I am not talking about the trundle into bio diesel or hydrogen land, oil would not be as dominant. Better living through Chemistry.. remember?

The only change is going to come from each individual, you can't and don't want the goverment to regulate or curb profits. Once gasoline is around $5.50 by the end of this summer, we will see a shift in consumer habits. As someone already pointed out, now we simply experience what Europe has been paying for years and we get the quaint "hummer car pool" (which by my observations is one person driving someone else to work, while on their way to the mall ) by the end of this summer the fuel efficient cars will start to sell out and THAT and only THAT will make the big auto industry react, simply because it affects their bottom line.

As far as drilling in the ANWAR is concerned (see I got back on topic ) we are only playing into the hands of the monopoly and strengthen their hold on us, are we not? Are you guys actually thinking that once they have tasted this much profit they would prices go lower, enough to make a difference for Joe Konsumer? Three words: Share Holder Profitability. Big oil is *expected* to beat this years earnings!

With my solar installation and a mulling plugin hybrids, 75% of our driving (which is non highway) would come from a clean energy source. The other 25% are me commuting to work 4 days a week. So yes we can make this work.. and the higher the oil price grows, the faster the break even point for energy efficiency investment is reached.

... now where is my Asbestos jacket? I had it just last week for the Martin fire ;-)

 

Stolen Generation? John Howard?

 

I read through page 4 for replys to F8L that would go point to point and discuss where he might have been wrong. Not one person dared challenge him on his information. Instead many used emotion and personal attacks on F8l. If you cant refute F8L why take it personal and attack someone, do your research and homework and prove him or her wrong. Many of you really appear to be silly and imature. Apoligies to anyone who responded to F8L that i missed who made sense. My eyes were glazing over from emotional drivel.

 

I would have to suggest several factors come into play

1. Correct, the depths are - in most "guestimated" ranges - *much* deeper than I'm familiar with. It's exotically expensive to drill, case, drill, case, etc. For example, beyond 2,000 ft you snap a drill pipe and lose the head. You are in *deep* s***, it can cost millions and take days to recover the head. In nasty cases, you have to abandon the head and start fresh

2. Other factor - no detailed geotech profile and/or seismic profile in place. Say over a guesstimated area of several thousand square miles where you assume the field extends, that could take 3-5 years just to profile it in minor detail

3. Other factor - no infrastructure in place to support drill/extraction ops. Everything has to be flown in and flown out. That means weather delays, logistical nightmares, hungry polar bears trying to eat you, etc. Once drilling is established, you obviously need a pipeline. Add 5 years right there

Especially with #3

I completely agree it can take +10 years to ramp a field. At first, you're extracting perhaps sizeable pockets of natural gas on top of the oil. That is a very dangerous phase of drilling, a "blowout" can occur with an explosion.

With pressure relieved in the field, there are also different plumes or phases of oil within the field. It isn't a uniform black goop that you pump out of the ground. The lighter fractions are on top, they actually are desirable for chemical production and certain distillates

Within that oil phase will be a plume of saline. Crude contains a surprising amount of salt, which is why the oil refinery needs the desalter. Hence the enormous water consumption as you're "washing" the crude and some of the product streams in the fractionating tower

Further into the oil field, will be the thicker hydrocarbon stuff. The field isn't like a giant bladder where you poke a hole and it flows out. You're drilling into anything from shale to sediment to igneous, all sorts of strata. There is an entire field of study devoted to stratigraphy and sedimentology

As you extract the oil, flow yields will increase to a certain point, then rapidly drop off. You then have to deal with hydrofracturing and chemicals to "encourage" oil flow. Believe it or not, even nuclear detonations were tried in the 1960's under Plowshare

The problem with using explosives is that you can shear or collapse the well, and end up with zero flow. Nuclear detonations tend to result in highly radioactive oil and natural gas. With El Paso Energy the Atomic Energy Commission - now DOE - did try 4 different stimulation studies using nuclear devices.

You can only hydrofrac so much before you run into low yields again or other issues. Most oil fields have fault lines. Injecting liquids into areas with fault lines can induce seismic activity. This is a well known danger in the extraction business

It's reasonable to model ANWR with the results from Prudhoe. In such case, 5-10 years to profile the field, 5-10 years to ramp extraction, a peak, and a 10-15 year decline to the point it's more economical to shut the field down

One issue not mentioned - at least not very much - is the influence of Geomagnetically Induced Currents on long metal pipelines in arctic regions. A lot of folks appear surprised about the corrosion in the most northern section of the Alaska pipeline.

GIC's can be expected to create anywhere from a few amps to over 100 amps of current. Pipeline operators in Scandinavia learned about this the hard way, and must take space weather into account when planning maintenance on their pipelines

Long story short: not as easy as some claim it to be

 

I think few realize how complicated the development of an oilfield from exploration to production and eventual abandonment is. Jayman has provided a fantastic and detailed overview of the workings of the downstream (refining) side of the petroleum industry in http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-h...efinery-discussion-jay-jimmie-production.html

Would anyone be interested in a similar thread pertaining to the upstream, exploration and production, facet of the petroleum industry? If so, I would be happy to start similar thread.

 

I just read Jayman's piece. Nice work. Go ahead, I'm sure there would be many interested,,,,assuming they know how to read!

Icarus

 

In regards to carguy60:

(F8L) Writes, right off the bat! “Your typical one-sided and thoughtless diatribes would crack me up if there were not so many ignorant folk like you in places of power”

Then Adds: “They don't intimidate me in the slightest. In some cases I would not have a problem enlightening them or at least enter an educated discussion where I could learn something but for people like this I would simply like to reach out and slap some sense into them because it is very obvious they have no willingness to learn”.

“You understand that a great many christian organizations agree with him and work towards similar goals right? Or are you mormon? If so I can understand your stance, they are about as lost as a religious sect can get. lol All joking aside you seem to have your heart in the right place and that is important for us to come to find common ground. The last obstacle is to make sure everyone is aware of the situations in full and fully educated on the subject. This is no easy feat considering the complexity of the issues and generally requires much study to fully understand. But as Rev. Maclean said: "we can love completely without complete understanding." ~ A River Runs Through it

"There are 1,360 qualitfied scientists that would disagree with you in this report: Millenium Ecosystem Assessment. Add 1 more for myself because I see the destruction on a daily basis in my studies and my line of wor".

I also disagree that we will be the first generation to hand our children a crappier place to live (degradation has been rampant since the late 1800s) but I agree that we may be the first to subject them to a lower standard of living.

How many oil geologists do you know and talk to on a fairly regular basis?

I'll play along and put up one of my references who regularly does "Geologic History of California" presentations at my college and worked for Mobil.

Do not attempt to belittle education just because you don't agree with the subject. My opinions have nothing to do with identifying myself with a state in this country, it does however, have everything to do with what I study, who I talk to (professionals), and what I see in my work and in the field. If I seem one-sided it is because I am commenting on what I've learned through study and observation, not what I hear on the radio, TV, or some other corporate media source. I do not study oil geology in class but the subject does come up in classes and during academic discussions. ( I say a little contradicting)

While this is indeed a great development if it can truely be recovered in an efficient and clean way (very tall order), it does not change the fact that we need to get off the stuff NOW and not allow it to be so cheap that consumers can waste it like they have been. We need this "cheap" energy to springboard our efforts at developing alternatives before energy becomes very cost prohibitive.

I am not familiar with the personalities or the axes they wish to grind via this site but People need to come back from the future they pretend to live in, join the real world and live in the NOW!

I will not try to let my opinions over ride common sense and stoop to his level.

1. The facts are 40% of the WORLDS oil flows through the Straits of Hormuz and the Israelis and US are looking at possibly taking out Iran's oil infrastructure as well as a total annihilation of their military (Comments regarding can be found In foreign policy articles and The Washington Institute for Near East Studies) The problem was that Israel didn't have in air refueling capabilities and would have to fly over other countries on a one way mission. This hurdle was cleared recently by an exercise over Greece to do a run up. This is a contributing factor to the price surge because people are speculating that Bush will pull the trigger. An other is sovereign funds, who do you think has vast amounts of cash in reserve? The weak US dollar etc., let's say it is a combination of things.

2. Part of the reason the US wants to occupy Iraq has got to do with circumventing the Straits with a pipe line. Which if you are a corrupt oil minister sounds great because your product will still go to market, only in greater quantities.

3.We have limited reserves, we go back to holes we capped, use our strategic reserves and develop other sources.

Don't get me wrong, I love My Prius, but there is more to life than bickering over who has the keenest intellect and the ability to impress.

The facts remain, fuel is high every one wants things at a reasonable price and no one wants to go to war. But there othere forces at work here.

The people this is going to kill is the trucking industy. An other consideration in why prices are high! Diesel is the least expenssive to refine but is in greater demand,it's also used to heat homes which people in warm climate areas seem to forget when they become selfed obsorbed and look for an outlet to prove ther superior intelect and express thier misled self serving opinions.

Have got to go, have bored to many to long, by the way our active rig count for the month is 54. Sorry to rant F8L. But it's not so simple.

 

I guess if you hung out more often you'd get to see that every few days someone registers to the forum and spews a bunch of falsehoods and attempts to push everyones buttons. Some have been here for quite some time and still make that their #1 agenda. The fact is you came on here as a newbie and decided to rant in a fairly random structure. I called you on it. I admit to having very little patience for those who do such things. Hopefully someday I'll overcome this problem but until then I try my best to not let myself get too carried away. With that out of the way I'll address the following.

1. My reference is also a board member of a conservation organization and participates in many local activities that benefit the environment and the community as a whole. I do not see his opinion as being similar to that of the typical media source. I do not feel I need to explain this any further.
2. You do not understand the dynamic between certain members here so be careful how you label them until you've been around long enough to see their true colors. It helps to read all of the forums.
3. I'm an ecology major which translates into studying complete ecosystems and their interactions.
   This does not make me an expert in oil geology (or anything for that matter) but I do have to harbor a broad understand of systems including geology. Thus my study and line of work has me talking with scientists and specialist from a myriad of disciplines.
4. As for joining the real world and living in the NOW. Do you know what I do for a living and who I interact with on a daily basis? I would argue that my finger is closer to touching the pulse of the NOW than you may think. I cannot expect you to know such things of course, yet I do take offense when you insinuate that I live in some fairytale world and have no real world experience.
5. The rest doesn't matter really. I am not upset with you in any way. I started posting in this thread with great displeasure aimed at the OP because of his continued antics. My reasoning does not make my actions excusable but at least I'm honest. I did agree with your second post to me though. I just missed it yesterday so I couldn't reply.

ewhanley, I would very much enjoy such a thread. What exactly do you do for a living or study for that matter?

Jayman, Thank you for your contribution to this thread.

CarGuy60, I'm not sure I deserve the thoughtful reply from you and I almost think you were refering to someone else but I will thank you just the same. Unfortunately I did not add very much to the discussion, other than insights into cooperative efforts and my view that we should be seeking common ground if we are to overcome such large issues. In my work I deal with ranchers and other landowners in coming to agreements where they can continue to work their land, make an honest and enjoyable living yet provide a service to the local environment by restoring or properly managing habitat. Historically ranchers and environmentalists have been bitter enemies. I work to bridge that chasm and restore relations and help people to realize we all have very similar goals and putting aside differences is how true work gets done.

Back on topic:

According to the Rocky Mountain Institute 's Amory Lovins (experimental physicist, author, CEO, consultant for the Dept. of Defense, etc.) and similar organizations, we have the technology and resources to reduce our energy consumption by 90% if we were to summon the political will and cooperative effort to see the plan through. Yes it is a grand vision but great things come from grand visions that are followed through. Is it possible? I cannot be certain but I do what will happen if we fail to act in response to the data we are now seeing. Jared Diamond painted some interesting pictures of that possible outcome in his book Collapse (2005).

For more outstanding information and documents from the Lovin's and RMI click the following:

Energy Efficiency reports

Energy Security (especially this report authored by Lovins and R. James Woosley)

Free copy of his book "Winning the Oil End Game"

Transportation (includes info on plug-in hybrids)


Great quote from a MotherJones article that fits this thread:

 

F8L, I have started a new thread here: http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-house-pancakes/49465-oil-primer-petroleum-exploration-production.html
So far, I have only managed to write up a little introduction of myself and brief outline of the topics to be covered, but I will continue to add to the thread.

By the way, I am a petroleum reservoir engineer. You can see some of my credentials and experience in the aforementioned thread.

 

Thank you. I will definately check it out!

 

Of course an aboriginal person might also become the governor of South Australia
Douglas Nicholls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia