US roadways will look like Europe soon...

Interesting thread. Having holidayed eight times in various places in the US, it's obvious that most cities have indeed expanded with the car. The sheer size and worry-free thirst of the cars has also been driven by an abundance and low cost of oil for decades, too.

But you guys live in a big country, and your cities and freeways reflect that. I was once travelling across Nevada in our rented 2000-model Chevy Malibu when we stopped for gas. I got talking to two locals and they were saying that no American thinks twice about driving 40 miles to get their groceries, a trip which in some cases wouldn't even mean straying over a county line.

In Britain and across most of Europe, most people would consider 40 miles to be something of a day out. As Bob47 pointed out above, our cities, towns and villages grew long before the car and with smaller distances to cover, railroads and canals were easier, quicker and cheaper to engineer and to some extent we still benefit from them now.

As for the future, I agree that sales of SUVs and massive pick-ups will fade away and Americans will look to smaller cars. Diesel too is something else that might pick up, if legislation allows it; half of all passenger cars sold in Europe are diesel-powered, with the latest turbo-diesels in many cases out-performing their petrol counterparts but with amazing fuel economy. The latest BMW 1-series diesel has a 2.0, 202hp engine that flies to 60mph in 6.9 seconds but returns 54mpg (imperial).

I do think however that the car is definitely there to stay in the US; your infrastructure is geared heavily towards it with few alternatives and as such car travel remains both extremely popular and essential.

 

I don't want to go an extra mile or two for my groceries.

 

Maybe not. On the other hand, if all 6 million people who bought Explorers over the years had bought something cleaner the improvement to air quality would probably be substantial. Not to mention the other 100 million trucks and SUVs on the road being used as passenger vehicles. On the other hand if the EPA hadn't caved in to the automakers demands to treat trucks and SUVs differently than every other passenger vehicle things would have been a lot better too.

FWIW, the composite smog emissions (HC-NM+NOX-COMP) of a 2005 Explorer V6 is 0.22 g/mi. A Honda Civic Hybrid from the same year puts out 0.01 g/mi. 22 times more smog pollutants across the huge number of Trucks and SUVs on the road equals a whole lot more crap that we all get to breath. That not only decreases our quality of living, but has contributed to a huge increase in respiratory diseases. As a result, health care and insurance costs are higher than they otherwise would have.

I love how people make no association between their individual actions and the collective result of 304,418,871 (or 6,705,460,850 for that matter) individual actions.

Which is exactly why it is critical that we all start making smarter choices, and if we prove unable do that start passing tougher emissions/mileage regulations.

The data shows Explorers kill twice as many people as Camrys and Accords. Tahoes kill 3 times as many. Full sized pickups kill 4-5 times more. The truly sad thing is that Explorers also kill their occupants 50% more often, and full sized pickups twice as often. Sure its ultimately the drivers fault, but why are drivers of one vehicle so much more likely to kill others or be killed themselves if the vehicle has nothing to do with it?

Sorry to post that for like the 7th time....

Whether or not Tractor Trailers kill people is irrelevant to what you chose to do. Thats an issue that needs to be dealt with in its own right. Hopefully with the rising price of diesel we'll be seeing a lot more rail freight, and consequently less long haul trucking.

Not that it has anything to do with the topic, but since you mention it I think the gun helps. I have found pointing your finger and yelling bang much less effective.

If everyone driving a 15-20mpg truck/SUV drove a 25-30mpg car we would not have to import any foreign oil from hostile nations at all. Because they don't we do. If overall gasoline demand/consumption were 20-30% lower, do you really think that would have no impact on prices? If that were the case (which I'm not sure I buy), why exactly do we have a free market for oil rather than regulating the price of a commodity our entire economy depends on?

Ignoring the effect on gas prices for the moment, would we be in Iraq if we didn't need to buy oil from the middle east? Does anyone actually believe we spent 4,100 American soldiers lives, 100,000-1,000,000 civilian lives, and $500B-$3T because we're just such nice guys and wanted the Iraqi's to be free? Estimates are each tax paying household would be responsible for ~$5k-$25k of that cost. Thats a lot for me to pay for someone else's right to waste gas.

How does wringing every last drop of oil out of the ground before we start fixing a problem we already know about help anything? The problem is that not only is oil production peaking, but we're finding new sources of oil much less frequently than we used to. Sticking more straws in the ground isn't going to accomplish anything other than to draw down whats in there even faster. Current proven US oil reserves are ~20B barrels, enough to meet our current production rate of 4.9M barrels/day for 11.2 years. However, 20B barrels is only enough to meet our current consumption of 20.9M barrels per day for 2.6 years. The "vast" reserve of oil under the ANWR is estimated to be 7.7B barrels. That would give us another 368 days. So we can destroy ANWR and run out of oil in 3.6 years, or leave it alone and run out of oil in 2.6 years. Explain to me again how we can become energy independent with more domestic drilling?





US Reserves and Production both peaked in the 70s and fell through the 80s and beyond. I guess that lefty tree hugger Ronald Reagan must be to blame for it all!

Rob

 

There are people out there using big trucks and SUVs as daily commuters (for one person) for NO reason whatsoever except prestige, looks or ego. There are the ones that will eventually be rethinking their image choices.

No one is going to buy a VW bus to drive everyday for image. So eventually auto manufacturers will wise up and build an efficient, fuel-saving minivan or family bus for those that need to transport more people.

Others will be re-evaluating their choices and going to something based on needs and use rather than image. Those that actually have to have an SUV or truck will just have to find the money to run it. Others will increase their mpg by moving from a truck or SUV to a smaller car for in instant 10 mpg increase in their personal fuel economy. (Personally, I've never owned a car that got less than 20 mpg.)

 

As another respondent already eloquently pointed out: one Explorer makes no difference. The millions of people who are driving Explorers (and Expeditions, and Excursions, and Extravaganzas) as daily single-driver commuters for no reason other than the image and that they "need it once a month to tow a boat"... Yeah, that would make a difference.

Don't forget that Explorers were the vehicles that pretty much started the SUV trend in the USA (at least in my experience).

"Look, up in the sky! It's a DISTRACTION!"

So your point is: we're doing some other horrible thing, so it doesn't matter if we continue doing the original horrible thing?

And yes, I have moral superiority here: I've produced no children of my own, as I believe we are overpopulated as it is. I married into a family that already had three kids, but I've added none to the total (and don't plan on doing so).

How many kids ... sorry, "brand new drivers"... do you have? How many more are you planning on having?

How much ozone layer, oil reserves (for, you know, plastics and pharmaceuticals) are you planning on leaving those future brand new drivers?

Ah, the joy of strawmen! Semi-trucks are driven by professionals. Ideally, those professionals have much more training, many more rules, and lots more oversight than SUV drivers. Also, they spend most of their time on limited-access freeways, where surprise is intentionally limited. I don't have the figures on rural/urban vs surface/limited-access injuries and deaths per passenger mile driven, but I'll bet you that large trucks are a very small component. (In the same vein, over-the-road bus lines such as Greyhound are actually the safest way to travel, per mile.)

And I agree with your comments on guns. "Gun Control... is hitting what you aim at." On the other hand, most of us do not strap on a gun and swagger around 2+ times a day as a part of our daily routine; those that do (law enforcement, security, military, etc) have a lot more training than "drivers' ed". On the other hand, most of us do get in our cars 2+ times a day, every day, and deal with many other people, most of whom have just-as-limited training.

You can make the claim that being in the bigger/heavier vehicle is safer, but (1) that's kind of morally sickening to me; and (2) it's not even all that true, since you have to consider single-vehicle accidents as well as loss-of-control situations that would not have existed in a smaller vehicle. There's a graph that someone's been posting very often lately; it's worth reading over.

"we all know" ... well, according to your news outlets, at least. Are you an oil futures trader yourself? What are your economics creditentials? What are your geophysics credentials that you can so quickly dismiss a true peak oil / massive demand scenario?

Hint: quoting Fox "News" does not cut it.

And you know, priuschat has thousands of people who have explored our own resources: we dug out the extra couple thousand dollars, and ended up with a car that is the nearest thing to the future that you can currently buy. How about that?

Um... why not? Like most people, I earn a certain amount of money every month. Some goes to taxes, some goes to long-term stable debt (mortgage, car loan).

Paying to keep my cars running comes out of what's left, as does all my discretionary spending (eating out at restaurants, going on vacations and seeing the sights, etc). If the portion that goes to gas costs increases, the amount I can spend on other fun goes down.

How does that not earn a serious remark?

And in what sense are Fox News "looking out for you"?

If drivers here in the USA had opted for fuel-efficient, comfortable cars in the 25-40mpg range, we could probably cut out all foreign fuel imports -- with no new drilling. You say that other countres do it without problems? List them. Then tell me how many vehicles each household has, what type they are, what their average MPG is, and how far they actually drive them each year.

Let me know how that works out for you, ok?

The short version is: you made a choice, and that choice does in fact impact the rest of us.

 

Destroy ANWR? Iraq for oil? Its obvious we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum. No point in arguing, we both have our own ideology that we follow.

 

Well, I'm sorry I'm such a horrible person.

Oh and I didn't think it would take long for someone to bash Fox News link. So sad, too bad.

 

Why am I not entitled to my opinion? I appreciate intelligent debate, but Fox bashing and trying to make me feel like a horrible person doesn't change my opinion and gets nowhere with me. I'm just trying to add a little more balance to this thread, which it sadly needs.

I'm not trying to criticize anyone for their beliefs. IF some of you want to take some of my individual freedom away and force me to drive something different, then good for you. If you want to plaster Obama bumper stickers on your vehical and plaster save the planet on mine (which someone did to me once) then good for you.

I promise I won't kill any of you in my Explorer.

 

Why are you here? This is a forum for Prius owners.

Certainly you're entitled to your opinion. And you'll find people that agree with you on the Ford Explorer forum.

No one is trying to take your personal freedom away. You're welcome to drive your Ford Explorer as long as you can afford the gas.

But again I ask...why are you here? Nothing we say is going to change your already formed opinions.

And nothing you say will make me believe Faux News is a legitimate news organization. If you're going to provide citations to back up your statements, you'll have to do better than Fux News.

 

Faux news? Cute. First of all the article I pasted was an opinion piece. Second of all, I'm here because I want to buy a prius and have posted on that fact and have asked questions regarding my plan. I have received valuable feedback from the Prius Chat community.

At the risk of taking this thread even more off topic: I find it funny that other news organizations are more legitamate? Well, you say so yourself, nothing I can say will change your mind. Have fun with the kool-aid.

I find it interesting that half of the country thinks the other half is wrong?

 

My short introduction to rhetoric told me that any topic has three facets:
1. Taste
2. Opinion
3. Fact
The trick is that only the second is up for debate.

I was calling you out on a fact: your driving an Explorer does negatively impact others. In a very small way, perhaps, but multiplied by millions of people making the same choice, it's an observable, quantifiable, and real impact.

You are welcome to whatever opinion you like. You will need to arm yourself with facts to defend it, however; otherwise we will view it as merely reflecting your taste.

When did I try to make you feel like "a horrible person"? I was simply pointing out that your personal lifestyle choices were, in fact, having a negative impact on the world around you. You're the one that chose to launch an ad hominem[/a] attack on yourself.

And if you believe that Fox News is "fair and balanced"... I disagree, and you'll choose to disagree, and that's a pointless conversation.

Tell me where I tried to force you to drive something different? I only asked that people who chose wasteful vehicles be responsible for their actions, and stand behind them. From an unrelated post a month ago:

 

zhackwyatt:

after all that, i am glad you are interested in getting a Prius. that makes everything you have said even more confusing. sorry if you feel attacked. but i don't care. i will do anything in my power to persuade you or anyone else i know (trust me on this. EVERYONE who knows me says i preach green 24/7!!) to reduce your carbon footprint, conserve our air, water and natural resources by being smart and sensible about how you use them.

if guilt-tripping works, i good with that... if intelligent conversation works, fine... whatever it takes...

fact is, what you do does make a difference. synergy works when a few doing something different builds because those few expose their ideas and experiences to a few more and it goes and goes like that until everyone is doing it. your holding back is delaying someone you know from following your lead...

dont minimize your impact on the people around you. you have much more power than you know... no matter how small of a stone you are, your ripple will still reach the other side of the pond.

i hope you do follow thru and get a Pri. they are truly remarkable vehicles. i admit to getting one because of the "green" in me, but it was the "techie" in me that sealed the deal

 

Bob,
I'm sorry that you misunderstood my reply to the degree that you found it necessary to imply I was smoking weed or something... wasn't that the essence of this below-the-belt jab?

My reply was actually geared more towards the beginning of your post above (requoted here), and the statements emphasized above. Hence my opening statement:

Perhaps I should have said 'that comparison' instead of 'the comparison'.

I will of course agree that there are many more variables to take into consideration in the big picture, and will defer to you any knowledge about tire pressure, etc. since I did not make any statements about that nor have any knowledge on that.

This exchange with you has been..... hmm... delightful. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to the pharmacy and fill a prescription. :frusty:

 

I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was simply referring to the overall feeling in this discussion. The overall tone here is that those who drive a Prius are better people than those who drive an Explorer. That's simply not true. We can get into a discussion regarding global warming and its causes, but I don't think it would be to hard to figure out what side of the issue we are both on.

The only reason why I objected to the negative opinion on Fox News here is that the article I quoted was never debated or discussed. The fact that it came from Fox News meant it couldn't be trusted and immediately dismissed. I admit that Fox News leans right, but if you believe MSNBC and others don't lean left, then I think you are really misguided. The fact is, the article doesn't favor Republicans or Democrats.

Again, I wasn't referring to you specifically. The point is that it works both directions. We all have to be accountable. There is things on both sides of the table that can be doen. If we can't drill oil, or open new refineries, then we have to rely on foreign imports. Driving more fuel efficient vehicles doesn't get us over the fact that we are still driving vehicles with Gasoline in them. We can't build Nuclear stations here either, I don't know about you, but I would rather live next to a Nuc. plant than a coal plant.

 

i think that you are right on the money.
i just talked to some guy who was spending $1200 on commute in his less than 12 MPG truck.

he said kid's college fund is being eaten by the truck.
but, what is most amazing is that someone would actually buy a gas guzzling truck, only to commute from point A to point B.

he, like many others will have the truck stuck in the driveway as who in the hell is going to buy a truck now, unless they absolutely need it for business or other good reason? Driving a big truck in a daily commute 90 to a 100 miles each day (like he did) is retarded.

a few months back while i was talking about my prius with some friends it hit me -- big cars/SUVs/Trucks will become rarity, not only that but it will become non-PC to drive a such vehicle.
I already talked to a few teenagers who are beginning to really hate big SUVs and Trucks.

My daughter told me that if she was the one enforcing the parking she would give tickets to all big "recreational" trucks and SUVs but she would let off the hook those with small eco cars.

I can't blame her, this is their way to make positive changes.

 

Well, I posted a pretty detailed argument a few pages back that you didn't see necessary to dispute. My opinion was based on data from the US DOE. Your opinion is based on Bill O'Reilly's opinion. If you still think he's right you'll need a little bit better quality sources than that to persuade anyone. The problem isn't with Fox News or Bill O'Reilly per-sea. The problem is you accept his opinion as fact without doing any research on your own to see if makes any sense. You assume that Bill is watching out for your best interest, when the reality is his primary concern is selling ad spots and books. Same is true of any other commentator on any other network.

Rob

 

The biggest problem with Fox News is that it's viewers can't make the distinction between new stories from reliable sources (like AP) that are simply reported and opinion pieces without reliable sources to back them up.

Bill O'Reilly said is not a reliable source for non-biased facts. If he's still spouting that "liberal media" cr@p and you're still swallowing it...I think I've made my point.

 

I understand that it is O'Reilly's opinion. I don't understand how I can accept his opinion as fact when it is an opinion. All I'm saying is that there are ways out of this problem. And some of them allow me to keep my Explorer. We are always going to have this issue until the entire US moves off of Oil for transportation. I didn't feel like disputing your post, because after you posted it I started getting attacked by other people on the forum and it just turned me off of the whole topic.

You also have a very cynical view of commentators. So which ones do you listen to? Any?