1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Jetta TDI vs. Prius, San Francisco on a tank?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Prianista, Jul 12, 2008.

  1. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    19,011
    4,080
    50
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA.
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    1 full second in 0-60 is quite large if the power/tq continue to grow and the gearing is set up right. I agree, nothing to laugh at. :)
     
  2. bulldog

    bulldog Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    224
    1
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    So any actual results in for the test?

    I will find it interesting to see when they actually test the TDi for real life conditions, and an auto as well. The majority of folks don't use a stick shift for their commute.
     
  3. donee

    donee New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    2,956
    197
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Hi All,

    Oops. Yea, it says they think it will be mid 8 second range, but do not give a number.
     
  4. bulldog

    bulldog Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    224
    1
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    From what I can see form VW UK site is that the 2.0 TDI 140PS model is rated at 9.7s by them for the 0-62 MPH. That is the non DPF model as far as I can tell.

    So I would say best would be to see what it actually does when tested locally. I would especially like to see the DSG model tested, as it is more likely to fit most folks needs (being auto).
     
  5. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2007
    2,605
    140
    0
    Location:
    PDX
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    You're right, I was working from memory and used the Golf number instead of the Jetta. Same engine but heavier car. You are correct that the UK spec 140 PS TDI doesn't have a DPF or the US spec NOx catalyist.

    140 PS TDI from VW UK:
    Model ------ (Manual / DSG)
    Golf ------------ 9.3 / 9.3
    Jetta ----------- 9.7 / 9.7
    Wagon ---------- 9.7 / 9.7

    If you notice the times for the 6-speed manual are the same as the 6-speed DSG. Some of the gasoline engines are listed as having quicker 0-100 km times with the DSG.

    I'll be interested to see what the 0-60 times are for the new TDI but more interested in top gear 50-70 times. To me passing on 2 lane roads is way more important that dragstrip launches.
     
  6. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2007
    2,605
    140
    0
    Location:
    PDX
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    From TDIclub.com the mileage results were 50.5 mpg for the TDI and 48.2 for the Prius. It says that they drove the speed limit the whole way.

    Freeway driving is real life conditions for quite a few people. For example, I've had a 130 to 170 mile highway commute for the last year. That is 90% highway, 10% city.

    BTW, they did test the auto. The Jetta "automatic" is a 6-speed DSG which is a manual with a computer controlled clutch. You can operate it in full auto, sport auto, or full manual mode.
     
  7. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    19,011
    4,080
    50
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA.
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Sounds fairly reasonable to me as I make that drive once a year. I usually do it in the winter and hit some snowy areas though.


    I still think they should have had someone a bit less biased drive the Prius.
     
  8. bulldog

    bulldog Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    224
    1
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Did they say how they measured the fuel consumption?

    I commute proobably 70% freeway (although the prius does most of the errand runs so 505/50 for mine), the problem is my 50% freeway is durign peak hours where it is hardly a steady speed. Most of the time it varies quite a lot in speed as the traffic speeds up and slows down. Hardly compareble to a nice road trip liek what they did. This unfritunately is the case for most freeway driving in metro areas these days, especially during commute times.

    Yep, I know the DSG, yet I have also heard that folks can't get the same economy or perfromance with them than the stick (might just be user error??).
     
  9. rogerDB

    rogerDB New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    29
    0
    2
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    I keep seeing these articals: xxx car beats Prius on hiway test. Lets see: Best milage for xxxcar is hi-way and stick, worst milage for Prius is Hi-way, mountains and inexperienced driver. I agree these test are bogus- lets drive these cars from Auburn to Everett at 7AM, tool around downtown Seattle for an hour, and then see whom comes out on top. In other words, any test is biased unless it's hybrid vs hybrid, mixed driving, stop and go. The test is only valid if you drive from Auburn to San Francisco, and no other conclusion can be drawn.
     
  10. dmckinstry

    dmckinstry New Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2006
    1,034
    4
    0
    Location:
    Cheney, WA (Near Spokane)
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    And to be really fair about it, although diesel fuel has about 20% more energy per gallon, it also costs about 15% more than gasoline. They need to measure the distance traveled vs. the cost to fill the tank in the 1st place. And of course going the speed limit on the freeway is going to put the Prius at a disadvantage. On a recent trip to Denver from Spokane (plenty of ups and downs), I got 56 mpg on the MFD (although I believe it was really only 54 mpg by calculation) by keeping the speed nearer to 60 mph, rather than 70 or 75 mph.

    Dave M.
     
  11. Presto

    Presto Has his homepage set to PC

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    1,326
    24
    0
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    If the Prius got whomped, in this economy test, then I think we'd be seeing an influx of uppity trolls.
     
  12. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    2,076
    523
    5
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    From Auburn VWs myspace page;

    So, the TDI went 733 miles at 50.5mpg, using ~14.51 gallons of diesel. The Prius was running at 47mpg. Over the same 733 miles, it would have used 15.59 gallons.

    Reported MPG:
    '09 Jetta TDI: 50.5
    Toyota Prius: 47

    Gallons Used (for 733 miles):
    '09 Jetta TDI: 14.51
    Toyota Prius: 15.59

    Crude Oil Consumed:
    '09 Jetta TDI: 15.96 gal
    Toyota Prius: 14.87 gal

    Fuel Costs:
    '09 Jetta TDI: $68.49 @ $4.72/gallon US average
    Toyota Prius: $64.07 @ $4.11/gallon US average

    CO2 Emitted:
    '09 Jetta TDI: 146.37kg
    Toyota Prius: 137.05kg

    CO Emitted:
    '09 Jetta TDI: 293.2g
    Toyota Prius: 73.3g

    NOx Emitted:
    '09 Jetta TDI: 36.65g
    Toyota Prius: 7.33g

    NMOG Emitted:
    '09 Jetta TDI: 8.796g
    Toyota Prius: 6.597g

    Even under the test conditions that most benefit the TDI, still looks like a clean win for the Prius to me.

    Rob
     
  13. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    19,011
    4,080
    50
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA.
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Rob, was all that based on the emissions specs for the '09 Jetta TDI?

    Thanks for doing the work on that one. :)

    Notice how they rated the Prius on engine only HP/TQ? Wth?
     
  14. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2007
    2,076
    523
    5
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Yup, '09 from the standard driving cycle data here:
    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/volkswagen_pc_a0070271_2d0_l2_diesel.pdf
    as posted here:
    http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/49909-2009-vw-jetta-tdi-emissions-results.html

    Yeah, I thought that was a little desperate. Those are the specs from the ICE alone. The electric motor is rated for another 67hp and 295 ftlbs of torque (although the controller never lets you have that much so you don't snap your half shafts :rolleyes: )

    Luckily for Auburn they haven't accepted my myspace friend request yet :D

    Rob
     
  15. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    19,011
    4,080
    50
    Location:
    Grass Valley, CA.
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Hahaha get signed up and stick em with the facts. :rockon:

    Thnaks again for doing the legwork and calcs.
     
  16. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,747
    5,243
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Highway only tests don't represent real-world driving.

    So, even that measure makes the diesel look bad.

    .
     
  17. eb2143

    eb2143 New Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    9
    0
    0
    Thank you for your sarcastic and misinformed response.

    I feel you have likely made some assumptions on where I stand. I believe a Prius's performance in a straight line is adequate. I believe they went overboard in the new TDI to please the most amount of Americans. And frankly, I'd rather have adequate. I was only pointing out that a fairer comparison would have been between two cars with similar performance abilities. A new common rail TDI with a smaller displacement ~100hp/160lb. ft. engine is a fairer comparison to a Prius and likely is more efficient than its bigger brother tested here.

    0-60 probably stands out as one of the Prius's better performance measurements.
    0-60 is consistantly a diesel's worst area.

    As has been said, you don't drive the 0-60 time. You drive the 50-70 and 30-60 times.

    I have driven both cars. There is no comparison in the performance category.

    The test is bogus for other reasons that have been pointed out. Definitely favored the diesel in terms of route. I do not expect the new Jetta to routinely get 50+ in mixed driving, not to mention that it's still a long way away in every emission category but CO2. They are just such different cars that I don't know why people think they are in direct competition.

    Oh, btw, I know that .2 = 1/5, but thank you.
     
  18. bulldog

    bulldog Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    224
    1
    0
    Location:
    CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I agree the test is bogus and was hardly done to obtain any accurate numbers.

    I however disagree with a few things when it comes to performance. The Prius was faster than the old 1.9TDi in 2006 (the DSG model), so I hardly think a 100HP diesel will cut it in the heavier new model Jetta.

    Also note that the problem is that Turbo Diesels feels faster than they really are, while the Prius is actually faster than it feels.

    Case in point: 45-65 MPH runs
    Prius 6.4s, Prius Touring 6.2s
    06 Jetta TDi DSG 7.4s
    2.5 Jetta DSG 6.0s (and the 2.0 TDi will have a hard time being faster than that)
    Tested by CR, but when you go to actual tests done scientifically by numerous mags you will find that the same results over and over again. So lets see how the 09 TDi measures up and the coming 2010 Prius.

    I have driven numerous TDs by BMW, Audi, LR, etc and know them better than most folks. They are highly overrated in the US as they have not been here. Make no mistake they have their place and function, but a lot of people seem to overestimate their actual capability.

    The reality of the matter is that a TD that provides the same real world performance as it's normal aspirated gas counterpart, will have a real hard time delivering more than 30% better fuel economy (of which 15% is the energy in the fuel).

    Another hidden fact is that a forced induction gas engine can easily produce more TQ than a TD. However most manufacturers limit the TQ output of the gas engine to increase lifetime of the drivetrain, reduce fuel consumption, etc. The reason why almost all diesels sold now are turbo charged is to give it reasonable performance, and manufacturers are forced to produce very high TQ numbers as the diesel engine does not have the same engine RPM range as the gasser. With a gas engine they can produce less TQ, less train on the drivetrain and still get the desired performance.

    And yes they are 2 very different cars. I like the feel and ride of the Jetta much better than the Prius, but I like the utility of the Prius much more than the Jetta.

    People need to stop "web driving" and/or bashing and get what they think suites their needs/wants best, either option is a lot better than the run of the full size SUV a lot have picked in the past.
     
  19. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    15,140
    611
    0
    Location:
    South Puget Sound, WA
    Vehicle:
    2013 Nissan LEAF
    Model:
    Persona
    test results are suspicious. i will be taking the same drive (well actually just under halfway AND only one way going down... be taking the Oregon Coast back up) Wednesday... it will be with a VERY FULLY LOADED Pri. i will advise what my mileage is and i will be driving the speed limit as well...(actually probably doing 60 mph most of the way... but we will see)

    i will post my "half results here"....i expect to get better gas mileage as i will be probably driving slower... no less than 60 mph...i will have enough gear for a week of camping for 3...(hopefully, i can fit it in...) so we shall see
     
  20. YoDaddyAlex

    YoDaddyAlex Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2006
    271
    4
    0
    Vehicle:
    2014 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    why do people only care about one thing and one thing only... saving gas? just look at the emissions and see why the prius is the best option