Extra rims for snows?

Yes, I mentioned Radial snowtires and chains on one specific instance that was not referenced as an example of traction. I was relating a story about our first winter in Atlanta and how they annouced that they had their snowplow, singular, ready.
The other example was of extreme conditions. I suppose that I was not clear. I was only trying to point out the experiences that I had as a result of many PA winters. Everything from pre-wide ovals, radials, studded snows, non-studded snows and chains. Rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, engine in the rear, engine in the front, 2 wheel drive, 4 wheel drive, positraction, etc. Got my learners permit 04/29/57, full license 04/29/58. Always lived in rural areas or out in the country. One place was 2 miles up, and I do mean up, >6% grade, in the woods, at the end on a dirt lane. I also did alot of winter hunting and spring fishing back then. So, yes! mud was also one of the many driving conditions that I could encounter in any given day. What may be best for your specific driving conditions may not be best for everyone. While narrow may have been better for 10% of my driving, the lateral traction was important for the other 90%. You alluded to the Model T's. I had 2 VW beetles in the '60's. They were the best ever for getting around in the snow with their narrow 16" tires, But somehow I still can't see me running them the on my 4000lb '69, Ford Club Wagon with it's 16" rims. Assuming that you did read my posts. I did read the posts, did some research on my own, and conceded that I was wrong and issued an apology. So I'm not sure with point you are trying to make. The wide snow tires worked best for me under the road conditions that I had to face from day to day. I did have to call a tow truck to pull the wagon out of the mud once, and again to get me off of the top of a snow bank at the bottom of a parking lot with an inch of sheet ice on the lot. But I never had to be towed out of the snow in 50 years of driving. Even had my '67 Cougar XR7 with studded wide oval snow tires follow me (imagine scrapping noises creeping up behind you) as I walked down through the parking lot to the office door. I had parked it. It was stopped. And after I was about 20 feet away, it just started sliding down through the lot. I'm glad that I was the only one that had made it in so far and the lot was empty. Another one of those overnight freezing rains that left an inch of ice on everything. I was, and took pride in, being one of the few people that would make it into work and to the customers for service. IBMer '60's & '70's Customer Service, in the country, Allegheny mountains, Central PA, Williamsport to the Maryland border, rain or snow, 24hrs, day, night, week-ends, holidays. Even the '69 race riots in York, Pa.
Lived in York then. Took our 2 wiemaramers with me. :focus:

:sorry: No! I did not confuse chains with tire traction in the snow!
And yes! I heard about the Model T's being good in the snow back in '62 when I bought my first VW bug. And yes, I agree with experts re: wide vs narrow snow tires. I was simply trying to point out that NARF's post "the narrower the better" is
misleading. The narrower the better for slicing through deep snow, etc. yes! In context the narrower the better is true if you are not limited by the diameter of the wheel. You want to keep you footprint the same area just a different shape; long and narrow is better than short and wide, but you want to try to maintain the area of surface to surface contact. Yhe more narrow that you make the tread the larger the diameter required to maintain lateral traction. Don't go wider, but also, don't go so narrow that you go beyond a safe degree of lateral traction. The Touring handles and stops better, and is more stable at high speeds because of the increased traction. I now agree that I would not look for a wider winter tire, but in all honestly, I probably would not not want to sacrifice the better, safer, performance for the vast majority of my driving.
Please! Again! I sincerely want to thank everyone for their posts and for pointing out that old belief that the wider the better for snow is not true.
And as I said before; "O.K., I'm sold. Thanks for all the patience. It just took a big enough 2X4."

eace:

 

Valerie; I thought that I perferred rear wheel drive also, until I learned how to take advantage of the front wheel drive. Rear wheel drive tries to push the car in a forward direction with the steered wheels trying to force it to turn in the direction of the steered wheels. Front wheel drive however, since the steered wheels are also doing the driving, tries to pull the car in the direction of the front wheels. This makes for much better overall control of the direction of the car. Especially on a crowned road in winter conditions.
Not trying to talk you into something that you are not comfortable with, but next time you find yourself in the situation, you may want to try and think pulling instead of plowing. It work for me. And, just like learning to drive in winter conditions with rear wheel drive, it just takes a little practice with front wheel drive. Took me a few times but now I feel in much better control with front wheel drive.
BTW, I also thought my studded snow's were the best until I found out what it was costing us in tax $$$$$'s for road maintenence. Studs absolutly chew up the roads.

 

With respect to front wheel drive - it is a well documented fact that except in unusual circumstances, the handling of a rear wheel drive car is significantly better. This is because the front wheels on a front wheel drive car deal with the coefficient of friction both for turning and for getting traction, hence they lose adhesion at a significantly lower speed than rear wheel drive which is only turning with the front wheels.

On the use of front wheel drive in snow - since we got our Prius in May - cna;t talk too much about experience with the car. However, I can say that a Lincoln rear wheel drive could walk up a driveway last winter whithout any problem. I was following in my front wheel drive Acura and couldn;t make it more that 1/4 way up and had to slide back down.

 

As far as rims, I went with 4 steel multi-fit from Canadian Tire. Paid $45 each if I recall

Currently, I run studded Goodyear Nordic. This is the same as the Goodyear Ultra Grip 500 sold in Europe. If you click on "Profile" a nice flash presentation loads that explains the tire benefits and construction

Goodyear Eur-Winter Tire-UltraGrip 500

I've tried studless winter tires on my Prius, and the studded tires still offer better grip on ice. Here, when it's bitter cold an icy intersection can stay icy for a long time. I run studless Toyo Open Country G-02 Plus on my FJ, and on ice my Prius will stop better. I am considering factory studded Nokian SUV tires for my FJ this winter

There is a lot of urban legend and myth about studded tires destroying roads. For example, Ontario banned studded tires over 30 years ago based on this belief. For the most part, modern factory studded winter tires do minor damage to road surfaces than other tires. The safety aspect outweighs this

The Swedish road transport research lab, VTI, has performed extensive studies on road wear. The EU-spec aluminum studs offer better ice traction than our North American spec steel/carbide studs, while being much easier on road surfaces

If you wish, you can search for this at VTI. Remember you must spell "tire" the way they do in the EU, which is "tyre."

Statens väg- och transportforskningsinstitut : VTI

Report : VTI

This report mentions that a change in road construction, to a cheaper but more wear-prone material, is responsible for the increase in road wear. The Swedes do NOT advocate banning studded tires!

This is an interesting report on road construction

Report : VTI



The issue of air quality has also been brought up. VTI constructed a special test rig that had a variety of road surfaces on it, and ran a variety of summer tyres, studless winter tyres, and studded EU spec winter tyres.

An interesting conclusion was reached: the use of sand on the roads, to aide traction on ice, was contributing to the increase in PM in the air. As vehicle tires passed over the sanded areas, the sand was ground down to a fine particle, which became airbourne. Studded tires contributed to some of the increase, so did the use of sand and road type

Report : VTI

The final report is quite interesting in the analysis of different urban streets

http://www.vti.se/templates/Report____2797.aspx?reportid=5869

Studded tires do contribute to PM, but so does sanding operations and even the type of road used. The report recommends immediate street cleaning once the weather is dry, to remove the sand.

 

too bad for us to order from tirerack, shipping will cost us an arm & leg eh.