Honda Brings Back the Insight to fight the Prius

I'm intrigued. How do you know this? Are they expanding battery capacity 4x, because if they aren't I don't see how it will be possible.

 

Toyota is expanding the battery production output 2x. Two new factories are going online by 2010 to produce 1 million packs a year. Current rate is 500,000 a year and a new factory is expected to increase that to 750,000 in 2009(?).

Insight II is expected to sell 200,000 a year. If Toyota's one million battery packs are for the Prius II (unlikely - probably also for TCH, HH, and Lexus hybrids as well), then you are looking at 5:1 ratio. Honda also has the Civic Hybrid and CRZ. HCHs are selling about 35,000 annually.... not sure how many CRZs are expected to sell.

Overall, I think Honda expects to sell about 250,000 hybrids while Toyota expects a million. 4x or 4:1.

 

Sorry, not quite right.
The latest reports and investor information have the annual production at 78,000+... not 35,000 as you state. The 35,000 number is closest the annual sales volume in the US alone.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Ahhh, thanks. I missed the ratio to Honda production and was thinking vs. current Toyota hybrid production.

Allow me to insert a fly into the ointment: Toyota has a sufficiently large and older installed user base that a portion will need to be devoted to replacing failed/damaged batteries. It's not a market they can abandon without disastrous results for their reputation as there is no aftermarket producer.

Now the effect might be very small, but they will need to account for it just the same. The lack of Gen I Prius batteries shows how tight the current Toyota hybrid battery market is--as do Toyota's low Prius sales figures in the U.S. for the past several months. (I was surprised that August data was not higher as the dealers finally got back some Prius inventory during the month.)

 

FWIW I don't believe the Prius shortage had much to do with batteries, though that theory was bandied about in the media. I think its just as simple as missing the demand forcast. As I undersatnd Toyota shut the line down around March to start getting everything ready to build '09s. They built up enough inventory to cover their expected demand through the summer. Demand was lukewarm, as you may remember, Toyota was even giving incentives on the Camry Hybrids. Then in April and May gas went from $3/gallon to $4/gallon and demand went through the roof. The supply of cars that was supposed to last all summer started drying up fast. And with the line down, Toyota had no way to replenish the supply until the '09s started arriving this month. I'm sure they are kicking themselves, but there was very little they could have done to predict it.

Rob

 

Rob,

It is possible it is just retooling, but the stock of batteries for the Gen I are gone from reports here. IIRC Toyota is the one that blamed the lack of Prii on battery capacity about two months ago and that's how it got bandied about in the media. So if it was really retooling of the assembly line, it would have made sense to stockpile other batteries in the interim, but that doesn't seem to have happened. Afterall, they still have to service the Gen I battery periodically, and the battery plant should not have had to retool for the 2009 Gen II pack, so the most logical way to schedule the plant would be in making parts to put back on the shelf.

I agree about the prior availability of cars and would agree with the explanation but for the factors above.

 

Could be. I had thought the gen 1 battery modules were different enough though that they would not be off the same line. I kind of wonder if the old ones are still being produced at all, or if Toyota has been working through their old stock and is now having to redesign a new pack for the old cars using the newer modules? Thats pure speculation, but would help to explain the shortages and delays.

Rob

 

Shawn and miscrms, I'll take a third position and say you are both right. The retooling is a rather digital problem (in this case zero), and while battery production certainly has a known upper bound rate, it is a bit hard to guess inventory on any one day, particularly given Toyota's JIT production planning.

 

Ford C-Max (2003 - Present)




So Toyota copied Ford (and MANY EU automakers) and Honda copied Toyota?

 

Someone posted that the new insight is smaller than the civic. I consider the Prius to be quite roomy inside. It seems the Prius is bigger than the Civic interior or maybe they are the same. Is a comparison bet the insight and Prius fair? The vehicles sure look the same, but is the insight a scaled down Prius? I'll believe the EPA FE numbers when they come out, but it seems hard to believe that IMA can have the same FE as HSD, unless it really is not an apples to apples comparison.