Dish warshers

On Ed begly's show (sp?) one of his guests mentioned efficiency is so high on some models now, that it surpasses by far, savings of hand washing. Hard to believe. We're in the market too.

 

my gf just had to replace the tub and after that the control panel...both were mfr's defects, but, i wouldn't recommend the electronic type cause there is inherent problems with electronics, heat and water. i just bought the bottom of the line from home depot on 12 months no int no payments. looks to be the same as what i had which lasted 15 years and i doubt there is much difference in efficiency.

 

This is kind of odd, because there is no reason that electronics should be less reliable than the old mechanical controls. Electronics can be potted, and otherwise environmentally sealed. Unfortunately it seems that many manufactures take the cheep road and the consumer pays in the long run.

Tom

 

Git a dawg. They kin warsh dishes real good.

 

Well, they're at least as good as the pre-rinse cycle

 

I've been using that fail proof method for years!

 

Can't say that I have much opinion of particular brands/styles of dishwashers since I haven't really done much comparitive testing.

We've got a Whirlpool DU1055 that was put in some time in the past two years before we bought the place. It is nothing fancy but is Energy Star stamped. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with it. I can load it better (fuller with the dishes we use) than the other ones we had in previous houses. It does a very good job on plates/glasses/bowls/silverware. It also does well with plastic cups because while the spray pattern is more effective than others I've had, it is not such a hard blast that it overturns plastic cups (which then fill with dishwater) as many others have.

It would be hard to beat the energy and water use on a decent dishwasher. It is rated at 5 gal/load. I've metered the energy use at 1 to 1.1 kwh/load (the latter was using the "Sani-rinse" option that heats the water to 150 F.) I only air dry.

We typically handwash the dirtier pots and pans because I've never seen a dishwasher anywhere that cleans such things decently. Instead of getting clean, dirtier pans get everything else dirty. I also handwash wooden handled knives, wine glasses and champagne flutes.

The negatives I've observed with this particular dishwasher is that it is not particularly quiet, and the cycles can be very long (probably 1.5 hours typical, sometimes up to 2 or 2.5.) There is a very long run of hot water line to the kitchen and I can't insulate it as it is behind sheetrock. I suspect part of the reason that some cycles are long is that the dishwasher heater is used to bring the cold "hot" water up to temp for both wash and rinse cycles.

 

Got Kids???

Children are great chore helpers around the house.
They do not necessarily have to be plugged in either.
Although sometimes it helps.......

 

Yes, but the thing is, if an electric dish washer is more efficient than an adult ... you can be sure, the way kids lollygag, you'd really be wasting water, heat. Another living w/ Ed factoid ... you can stop the dishwasher after the last rinse cycle and let 'em air dry, to ad more energy savings. Probably have to crack the door open, I'd imagine.

.

 

Most definitely. From what I can tell I use substantially more water than the dishwasher does.

The main wash portion of the cycle is 120 F (same as the water heater setting). The final heated rinse is 140 F--150 F if using the sani-rinse. This is much more hygenic than what I can manage with the water heater at 120 F.

You don't have to stop the washer to do this. Just deselect "heated dry." You shouldn't need to crack the door (I don't anyway.) The hot vapor rises from the vent slots and the hot dishes do the rest. Some coffee cup rims hold water as do some pan lids, so I turn them over and set them out on a drying/cooling rack when I empty.

Admission: the reason I stopped using heated dry years ago was that it was breaking some glassware and dishes.

 

Here's the latest listing of Energy Star dishwashers and their energy usage: ENERGY STAR

 

Tripp,

I've had a lot of bad experience with dishwashers in the past few years, so I'll tell you what I think I know.

First, if your old one is a nice old one, and you buy a new energy-efficient one, be prepared to use a rinsing agent in addition to the soap. Else, in our case, with three different new(ish) dishwashers, we'd get little gritty particles stuck to the dishes.

I made the mistake of buying a Whirlpool that was recommended by Consumer Reports. I hated the thing so much that I have blocked the name, but it had Quiet and Silver in it, as I recall. After the third significant repair (and second leak onto my maple kitchen floor), I trashed it. I'm pretty sure it was less than four years old when I replaced it.

For at least one of the repairs, I am sure it was a generic design issue, because the dishwasher was only a couple of years old and I had a heck of a time tracking down the part. Everybody carried it, but everybody was sold out, which generally means that a lot of them had to get replaced.

As it turns out, a large number of models with different brand names have the same internal works. When I went to buy a replacement, I literally had to look in the each dishwasher to see that I wasn't buying the same works that I was just getting rid of.

So, different brand name different model may mean next-to-nothing in terms of what you're actually buying. You need to look at the inside to see whether the guts really differ across models.

Having never had a lemon appliance before, I'm unlikely ever to buy another Whirlpool.

I went to Best Buy, bought some run-of-the-mill midrange dishwasher off the shelf, and had no further problems.

One thing I learned from that dishwasher might be useful. A lot of the lower-end models have plastic tubs. Which is OK, until a fork slips, pins the heating element down toward the tub, and melts a big ol' slot right through that HDPE tub. Basically, nothing sticks to HDPE, making it fairly hard for the homeowner to repair. I ended up using aquarium sealant, and kept it running a few more months. Until the next major breakdown, at which point I tossed it. Anyway, that's something to consider when comparing the plastic-tub and metal-tub models.

In terms of energy efficiency, if you run the tap when you wash dishes, then I think there have been several studies to show that a dishwasher is more efficient. The trick is that a typical faucet runs at about 2 gallons a minute, while a typical dishwasher these days uses four gallons. You can beat the dishwasher if you wash your dishes in a tub, but I think the conventional wisdom is that even then, it's fairly hard, particularly if you rinse in anything but straight cold water. Open up your dishwasher mid-cycle, there's not a lot of water in there.

None of the (now three, with my new house) energy-efficient dishwashers was as foolproof as my old high-energy-use, high-water-use kitchenaid. All of them are quieter and much more energy efficient, but all of them have been picky about exactly how much you put in and how it's oriented. And rinse aid is a must with our current one.

You now, I just don't want to think that hard just to do a load of dishes. So I haven't found the ideal. And won't look again for another couple of decades, I hope.

The only other upside is that modern ones are built like Legos -- you practically don't need tools to take them down to the frame. Not that you'd take that up as a passtime, but it was interesting to see the comparison between my old kitchenaid and the new whirlpool.

Oh, the other think you'll learn is that a modern dishwasher with a plastic tub weighs next-to-nothing compared to the old one you're going to toss. And that's a good thing, I think.

 

We like our super quiet super efficient Sears Kenmore that is quite obviously a Bosch. Wait for a sale AND a rebate.

 

I've had good experiences with appliances chosen with the help of Consumer Reports, having considered the ratings and the repair history, too.

 

Interesting. That's the reverse of what I've seen--not that I doubt you. I haven't needed a rinse agent for the newer ones. Not that the rinse agent worked for me on poorly performing ones though...I tried it hoping for some solution before throwing one out and on others trying to get them to perform more reliably.

Water hardness/composition, detergent differences, and rinse/wash/loading habits have some influence on this so we could get entirely different results with otherwise identical gear I suspect. However, when I replaced one old one that was having the sort of troubles you describe, the problems went away.

The newer spray patterns/nozzle angles are much better engineered than the old ones for actually cleaning dishes. The old dishwashers had so many dead zones/angles that loading them was an annoying 3D jigsaw puzzle where I ended up leaving a portion empty...or moving and rewashing the dishes placed in the dead zones, especially corners.

Twenty years ago spray and distribution patterns were terribly neglected by most industries. 80% "rule-of-thumb", "industry standard" solutions were typical, leaving a lot of efficiency improvement on the table for those who were willing to study a bit harder and better match the application. To me it was low hanging fruit when doing process improvement, high return for very little investment and even less risk.

Whirlpool isn't what it used to be. My older Whirlpool appliances were excellent for their time. The newer ones have mixed reviews. The Whirlpool gas waterheater I have is made by some outfit in Tennessee that did a poor job engineering their burner and has about the worst reputation possible. (I think I might be able to fix it with a few well placed Dremel cuts if it fails.) My father had such trouble with a new Whirlpool clothes washer's warranty support just a few years ago that he won't touch their products anymore. He went to LG, and so have I based on consumer reviews.

Pretty much true of all major home appliances. Typically there are approximately three major manufacturers for any one appliance category with about a dozen major names placed on their stuff. The hard part is figuring out who is who.

That's an unfortunate failure mode.

Shouldn't be an issue if one air dries though. :thumb: It won't happen in a tub containing a water level because the metal will conduct to the water, keeping it well below the HDPE melting point. (Boiling heat transfer coefficient is over two orders of magnitude more than the conduction.) But it can happen in a liquid drained tub with a heating element running: heated drying. Air is a lousy heat sink because the convective coefficient will be very low in a still tub.

By my Kill-a-watt check versus the EPA test protocol (same settings except air dry) I save .55 kwh/load. It might be more as I've not metered the air dry scenario.

 

Thanks!
Wow! 180 versus 340kwh used per year. Nearly double from the most efficient to the least efficient electricity user.

 

I've found vinegar works pretty well as a rinse agent. If the problem is spots on your dishes, the cause may be too much soap, rather than anything wrong with the rinse agent (or lack thereof, if you forget to fill up that little thingy) "Soft" water needs much less soap to get things clean - dishes and clothes - than a full dispenser in the door, or a whole scoop in the box.

 

We have a older Energy Star-certified Maytag we use on occasion here, interesting thing with the risk of melting HDPE. Snowboards and skis use UHMWPE which is basically polyethylene but with a higher molecular weight - and NOTHING sticks to that too and they are just bad to fix.

If you want something easy to fix, I'd stick to a mainstream brand. I know of someone with a Swiss-made dishwasher that had a few issues with sensors going out. However, there isn't such thing as a distinct product for appliances - manufacturers do ODM and OEM work for each other. Samsung is making refrigerators and washers for GE and Whirlpool, while Whirlpool is building Viking's dishwashers and refrigerators. Electrolux's US-market products are built by Fridgidaire in Mexico, while Haier is making appliances in China for a few major labels too.