lament of a low income environmentalist

Actually a used prius will help you make a statement more than a new one. Not only purchasing the "right" kind of car but conserving by recycling a car rather than buying a new one.

It's tough to be green on a budget. I'd love to have geo-thermal heating and solor panels for my house but that is for the rich.

 

You can reduce your carbon footprint by a greater degree than you would buying a hybrid by cutting half the meat from your diet (we eat more meat than is natural or healthy anyway) or by riding a bike regularly on your sub 5 or sub 10-mile errands. Both of these steps are very green and will also save you a not-inconsequential amount of money.

I've been on an overseas assignment for almost three years now, so I've been pretty thrifty lately and the Prius' price tag isn't much of a problem for me. However, the two aforementioned steps are also going to be a part of my overall self-greenification, and will also help to offset the Prius' greater cost.

Look at it this way: no car that burns fossil fuel is truly green. It might be greener than most, but any excuse to avoid the dead dinosaur juice altogether is a good thing, and will usually cost you nothing. I second the suggestion to buy a used Prius, and I'll wave at you if our two Prii ever pass each other on the road, but don't think that you can't make a serious contribution to environmentalism without one. Remember that the ideal destiny of the hybrid is to facilitate its own obsolescence through the development of oil-free vehicles. That's why I'm getting one; while it's great to burn less gas now, it'll be even better to burn none. And hopefully, that's where the market is headed, assuming it's supported by consumers.

 

Based on your low income, How much do you think is reasonable to spend on a car?

I got a used 1-year-old Insight for ~$10,000. (30,000 miles)
You should be able to pick up a used gen I Prius for under $10,000 as well.
Another friend of mine bought a used Insight for less than $4,000. (160,000 miles. He now has 225,000 miles)

I felt that $10,000 was a lot to pay, since I probably could have gotten a used Corolla or something for a few thousand less, but it has defintely been worth it and has literally changed my life.

 

Quill is spot on. True environmentalism is naturally frugal.

Walk, bicycle, use public transport
Install your own solar water heater
Dry your clothes on a line outside
Install windows for home heating in the winter (not hard to do with some help)
Cut down or out meat consumption
If the device is not being *used*, turn it off! (think lights)
Warm clothes in the winter, cool clothes in the summer

As far as I am concerned, the only energy hog I cannot reign in is our refridgerator. Once you get to this point, you are using 5% of a typical American energy abuser.

 

I'm sure you are already hypermiling your van? We have money problems-illness-and had to sell the Pilot($15500) and buy a 1998 195,000 mile Suburban to replace it. Obviously all things being equal the Pilot was 3 mpg better than the Suburban. However,I now mildly hypermile the Suburban and get 15-16 mpg heavy city,and 21 mpg pure highway.
I pulse and glide in D wiht motor on-keep the tire pressure at specs,and shut down at long lights. I use the cruise and 60-65 mph on long trips.
The Chevy vans-and later Ford vans can get pretty decent mpg.Dodge vans do very poorly unfortunately. All the minivans-except pre 2006 Korean ones-get pretty decent hy mpg and city relative to truck type vans(about 5mpg hy better and maybe 3 mpg city better).

I know the feeling of not being thrilled with cash for clunkers.Why trade your very functional van-and HUGE mounds of cash-for a vehicle that gets better mpg, but can't carry "stuff".Folks who are short of money frequently can't just "rent" a bigger vehicle when they need to get something large moved.
We have 2 dogs, 4-5 cats and 3 adults we have to get out of town when a hurricane comes.A minivan would be better than a HUGE SUV, but the better used minivans cost a lot more than a used HIGH MILE hulk SUV.They are harder and more expensive to fix also. There is a reason that rural(and urban/suburban) lower socioeconomic folks drive old beat up pickups/SUVs rather than old high mile cars.They are cheap to buy(not cheap to own, but you pay as you go if you have financial limitations)

Luck
Charlie
PS - LOTS of used 2004-2009 Prius are being sold by folks looking at the 2010 Prius.You should be able to get on for maybe $12000-$13000 or less in a private sale.Granted this is a lot of money, but it is a good option

 

I think when I bought my hybrid it cost as much as all my other vehicles up to that point combined. So it was definitely a BIG purchase for me. I would even venture to call it a splurge.

I am a naturally frugal person, so I know that $10,000 is still a lot of money.

 

There's the philosophical problem. I've been watching and participating in this forum for a few months now. It's a great forum. One of the best I've ever seen for direct information and/or just informational banter. Seems to have a great level of support and a very nice group of regulars.

I hope to soon be a Prius owner myself. However, somewhere between a "Southpark" smugness and a automobile that magically drives through a stylized environment, awakening a sleeping nature, is probably the truth.

The truth is The Prius is not an entry level automobile. I have a feeling a lot of sacrifice is going into keeping Prius 2,3 below $25,000, the $30,000+/- ceiling of the Prius IV and V seems to be where the Prius is heading. Of course we have not seen what the Prius 1 will be, maybe it will be closer to what you are looking for.

The reason I started this post with sincere but glowing reviews of this site is that I am now going to make comments that will probably make me unpopular.

While I think the Southpark parody was just what it was, parody, there is a certain level of truth to it, which is often the case with humor or attempted humor. It's been interesting for me to have discovered this forum for the time period I did discover it. The past 1/2 year or so, I have watched and lurked and learned as The new 2010 Prius was released. It's been a dynamic time for Prius lovers and I'm guessing a pretty active time for the Prius Chat forum.

There is far, far more good in a cyber community like Prius Chat than bad. But I have witnessed a few things. First of all, to be honest The Prius isn't an entry level automobile. Anyone buying a new Prius has at least $20,000+ to $30,000+ expendable cash/credit. While this price range put's it in the shadow of what people would consider a luxury or sport automobile, it also separates The Prius from Yaris's. Corollas or other generally < $20,000 new entry level vehicles. In short, if you are buying a new Prius, you have a decent income by many peoples standards. The growing gap between the haves and have nots may make it seem to those that "have" that $30,000 more or less, is a "cheaper" automobile but still to a LOT of people that is cost prohibitive.

So does the Prius become the must have gadget of the affluent? The ecological car to ease a concious? The car parked in the driveway to offset the SUV or the overpriced sports car? Each person would have to answer that for themselves.

I watched the wave of the New 2010 Prius as it hit the Prius Chat beach. I don't mean this as an admonishment to anyone directly, as I've said, I have been impressed with the helpfulness and commraderie that seems to exist within this forum. However, I did see a lot of people when the 2010 was first being released, in a mad, almost childish desire to be "First". I saw a LOT of people trading in perfectly good, what I would consider almost new 2nd generation Prius, to get the "latest" and "greatest". This is fine, if you have the resources, I suppose you can spend them on anything you wish. But lets be honest, let's be totally honest, in my opinion, trading in a perfectly good low mileage 2nd generation Prius on a new 2010 isn't the purchase decision of someone thinking too much about the environment. It's consuming, and it's consuming for- in most cases-simply the sake of being on the crest of the wave of newness. Again, this isn't admonishment, but I saw a lot of people rushing to "upgrade" not out of need- but out of want. Also in my opinion the 3rd Generation Prius is an improvement over the 2nd Generation, but if I already owned a perfectly good 2nd Generation? I don't think I'd upgrade, until I felt the functional lifespan of the automobile was drawing closer to an end. This IS a little bit of admonishment, but I was put off by the number of "I'm going to be "first" in my region, state, neighborhood, people....who cares? Listen, at least temporarily I can afford a Prius. But it's part of my background both socially and economically that I remember hand me downs, and generally NOT having something new and trendy until it was WAY past being new or trendy. Again, great if you have the financial resources and desire to be "first" with the "latest", but in a lot of cases, (yes, not all) that perfectly valid choice, is not an ecological supportive choice and/or a economical choice. It's the choice of those with a level of affluency.

I'd like to see Toyota, Honda, anyone and everyone REALLY make a decent, viable Hybrid for everyone. Plus Sorry Honda, even $20,000+/- doesn't really fit that definition to me. In my opinion, nothing since the late 60's and 70's has been able to replace the reputation that The original VW Bug rightly enjoyed. A car that was reliable, cheap, and offered the "used" car audience the the chance to buy a new car that would offer functionality and economy and the reputation of being a reliability bullet at a lower than anything else price. I don't really feel Kia Rios, Hyundai Accents, or Toyota Yaris's or Honda Fits really fit this definition. The Prius certainly doesn't.

The unfortunate side of this is if you are on a budget, or have economic restraints and want to go "green", you are forced into the used market. Nothing wrong with a used Prius, as many have pointed out, but a good, certified, used Prius is probably going to be more expensive than a similar used full ICE alternative. So by my evaluation the people getting really stuck paying a "hybrid" premium are those with the least resources to actually pay for a hybrid premium. The poorer, used hybrid car buyer. Those that can afford a new 2010 Prius, don't really care that they are paying upwards of $23,000 - $30,000 for a hatchback with a battery. Those that would like to get onboard the hybrid train for $18,000 or less probably do care.

I like this forum, I like The Prius, but I think there is a schizophrenic nature to The Prius as a concept and a schizophrenic psyche to a lot of owners. Here's a car designed to be "economical" that now comes with Lexus like extras. Here's a car with the hands down best commercially available gas mileage, but to obtain it, you are going to have to pay a premium. Is there a schizophrenic nature to an audience for a car that wants to simultaneously reduce emmisions, save gas, but also press a button to cool the car down before you get in it? Buy an AT package designed to ease and facilitate long distance drives? Is there something in the fact that you are driving a car with ECO and POWER mode buttons separated by an EV button? Again isn't that illustrative of the fractured psyche of Prius ownership? I want to be Ecological, especially if gas get's to $4.00 a gallon BUT I'd also like a button that allows me to POWER up and zoom onto the gas guzzling freeway?

I'm not a "hardcore" enviromentalist, but I know that despite Toyota's advertising, nature is NOT the happiest when a Prius drives by, nature is best served by less driving PERIOD. Nature is best served by less mass consuming of unneeded goods and services. IE: a new car, just to have a new car. That's the philosophical Catch 22, The Prius is an expensive car, and it is "good" for the environment, but only in comparison to other automotive alternatives.

I know perfection is not attainable in this case. But my warning is that we need to be honest with ourselves. I think the Prius is a great choice as a commercially produced automobile. I think it's among the best choices a consumer can make. But in doing so, we need to realize that A: we are consuming and B: The Prius despite low emmisions and comparitively great gas mileage, is still a machine that uses resources, and to an extent it does play a shell game with them. If Prius owners aren't honest with themselves about this, they run the risk of becoming the Southpark Parody of themselves. Calling for LED lights front and back to use less electricity, while simultaneously installing lighted door sills (which I love by the way) is a dangerous slope.

I've dragged on and have considerable "message creep" here. But to be Green is going to cost some Green and in the end, it's still a machine.....there that's it.

 

:mod: This. Real environmentalists don't have a car. I'm not just another guy saying "just do x, it's so easy" either, I rode a bike exclusively for 7 years (although I am relatively young and single).

This post is FULL OF WIN.

 

Electric Me, no reason for apologies or worries. Hybrids & electrics are relatively expensive because we are still close to the beginning of their development. At the early turn of the last century Ford's Model T was expensive and seen as a toy of the rich. "Poor", "sensible" & "thrifty" people knew a horse was more practical. (At this point in time aluminum was more expensive & rarer than gold.) Process improvements were made & manufacturing capacity increased to handle demand which allowed Ford to reduce costs & price. At the end of its useful life some 20+ years later the car was dirt cheap and something people didn't want to be seen in.

The hybrids & electrics are priced toward the high end of the market because they are relatively expensive to manufacture. Batteries are expensive, heavy, and in short supply. Lighter, more expensive materials need to replace steel to offset the weight. Advances will be made resulting in lower costs and prices but it will take time. I've read that it costs Tesla $80000 to build a $110000 Roadster.

"The market" also demands more. Carpeting, air conditioning, automatic transmission, and radios were options. I suspect that if someone wanted to build & sell a "basic" car like a Beetle or a Model T they wouldn't be able to find enough buyers to cover the costs or be able to meet Federal & state safety standards.

In closing I agree that those who can benefit most from technology are most likely those who can't afford it.

 

A second hand Prius isn't cheap but that is caused by demand not Toyota. Personally I don't mind that my Prius depreciates slower than a Holden(GM) or Ford. I could have bought a same year used Commodore and saved $9,000AU over the Prius. in 10 years time I'd have worn the Commodore out but my Prius will still be going strong. If I sold after 5 years I'd get half of what I paid for the Prius but the Commodore would be worth maybe $5,000 if I was lucky. So I'd drop $11,000 on the Commodore in depeciation or $12,500 on a Prius but the Prius would save me $1200+ a year on fuel so $6,000 over 5 years putting me at least $3,500 in front. over 5 years. The Commodore is a bigger car but when I'm on my own I don't care how big the car is and I have never needed to carry 5 in my Prius.

My son has a 20+ year old Corolla, no problem with that and it cost $400. It uses very little fuel, and walking is a very low emissions way to do shorter journeys.

 

Actually one can find great deals on used Prius's on ebay. I've had two friends who found used (2007 and 2006) Prius's for well under $10,000. And both have been quite happy. There was a low mileage(65000) Gen 1 Prius that went for $5400. One can find reasonable deals on hybrids, but it takes time and luck.



Steve

 

I understand your points, but I think that ultimately, these are actually some of the exact reasons that we will be able to achieve a greener future.

Think about it: if greener cars were not well-marketed and desirable, then no one would buy them. This is why I LOVE the Tesla Roadster, for instance. My last car was sporty, so while I wanted to make a green choice with my next car, I would have loved it if I could get something both green AND sporty. Now, I'm only 22, so $100k for the TR is way out of my price range, of course. But, if we can make cars that are both responsible AND exciting, then everyone wins.

(Side note: Tesla is also working on two other vehicles. One in the $50k-$60k range, and another in the $30k-$40k range. Originally, I wasn't planning on getting another car for a few more years, so I figured that by then the $30k-$40k Tesla would be available and that I might be able to afford it. However, my old car died on my recently, so I found myself looking for a "new" car sooner than I expected. Enter: my 2007 Prius! )

And well, I think there are lots of people who want to make a difference, but many of them are more pragmatic, and less idealistic. For instance, one could just go live in the wilderness and never use any gas/electricity ever, but that's not very realistic. There's got to be some minimum standard of comfort, and some people draw that line higher than others. In any case, I agree with your observations, but as mentioned, I believe that what you observed is exactly what is going to make this work!

Give us a reliable vehicle with features we love, and hide an environmental design inside!

 

I'm a real newbie, I bought a 2005 Prius with Package #6. I am a retired person living totally on Social Security. So a new car was out of the question.
I really love it, cut my fuel bill in half. Plus I love the technology involved in the operation all the equipment.