Anyone else have a PHEV system from Jungle Motors?

Hi Nirmala,

I believe the PHEV conversion from Jungle Motors is the CalCars style conversion from Plugin Supply. I have had experience with CalCars style systems yes. Basically it uses contactors to parallel the auxiliary battery pack (240v pack that sits over the rear tire-well) with the OEM battery pack allowing massive energy transfer (upwards of 130 amps for brief pulses) between the two. There is some discussion as to whether or not this damages the batteries though I can tell you for sure it isn't good for them. I definitely noticed degraded performance from my OEM battery after removing that system though I can't say definitively that that was the culprit.

Lead acid batteries tend to last only a couple months in a PHEV environment. The best I saw was about 4-6 months before their performance was seriously degraded (capacity reduced to about 5 miles...). With the price of lead on the rise--longevity is something you may want to consider, especially if you don't want to be replacing your batteries often. I don't believe the batteries come with any warranty, though I could be wrong about that.

The EV mode that that system uses is something called Forced Stealth mode--which for those of you who have already heard my rants--I'll spare you the long version and give you the synopsis. Basically it forces the car into thinking something terrible has happened to the engine and the car completely disables the engine until you turn the car off and on again. This clears all emissions related data your vehicle has stored as well as any trouble codes (for dealers) and engine learned values (eg: data that your engine has learned about fuel injection to give you a smoother ride). It also means that if you really need acceleration (say to get out of the way of a car) you're stuck with the limited electric power of the vehicle. In essence, it's a safety hazard in more than one way--and there have been several tests done by reputable laboratories that suggest the forced stealth approach may cause the motors to over-rev resulting in long-term damage.

Now, you could just drive the car normally without using this forced stealth mode and still get good mileage. Toyota made the car with a low speed EV mode that allows you to go up to 34 MPH without any of the problems mentioned above. I believe it's possible to specify which version of EV mode you want when purchasing it--I would suggest the OEM Toyota mode.

In summary:

Pros:
Cheap overall system (depending on longevity of your batteries). Replacement batteries cost roughly in the $500-$700 range depending on where (and when) you buy them.

Automatic (assuming you aren't using forced stealth)--requiring little to no driver interaction besides plugging it in. When not in EV mode the vehicle still uses more battery energy than it otherwise would.

Access to spare tire (assuming you get the latest version with mechanical lifts).

High energy transfer (110+ amp transfer compared to other systems such as the Enginer system which can only transfer about 12 amps--though again, this comes at the cost of degrading your OEM battery).

Cons:
Lead acid batteries need to be replaced

Possible (likely) reduction in OEM battery life due to high current transfers

Poor crash safety (the box is securely fastened, but it's 350 pounds of lead in a steel box that probably isn't quite strong enough).

Extra Weight (batteries weigh upwards of 350 pounds...you'll need to upgrade your rear suspension and make sure you get your tires rotated when you should).

Poor quality charger (I'm not sure what chargers are being used these days, but that conversion has a history of poorly manufactured chargers)

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Additional notes:
If you do buy this system, be careful not to let the batteries get too out of sync. Since the system does not come with a BMS (battery management system to keep the batteries roughly charged the same) the batteries can get slightly out of balance with each other over time which can significantly reduce the lifespan of them (EG: one or two batteries get pulled down a lot further than the others to the point where I observed the polarity of the battery terminals actually switched...that was not a pretty day). Some chargers will pulse-charge at the end to attempt to balance lead acid batteries but others (namely the cheaper chargers) may not.

Safety tips:
The CalCars style system is unique in the sense that if it fails (that is, fails with the contactors in the on position) it's possible that the auxiliary battery will overcharge the main Prius battery potentially resulting in a disaster. You may wish to purchase a ScanGauge or similar tool to monitor the charge percentage of the Prius battery regularly to avoid such problems.

Hope that helps,
Andrew

 

Ah, I just re-read your post and see now that you bought a car with the lead acid PHEV system already installed--well hopefully my comments will help you understand better how your system works =).

Andrew

 

It may be 4-6 months, but that really depends on how the batteries are used. The data posted by Cheap! at:

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-...s-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-system.html

Quoting: My pack cost me $900 and I got 300 cycles out of it. (I was lucky because most people would only get 200 cycles.) That is a battery cost of $3.00 per cycle. I got between 15 EV miles per charge with new batteries, and 6 EV miles per charge at the end of its life. That is an average of 10.5 miles for each cycle. That means my battery cost was $3.00 for every 10.5 miles, or a "battery only cost" of "$.285714" per EV mile.

So maybe the real consideration is the "battery only cost" of each EV mile. I know I wouldn't be replacing a PbA pack just on the possibility that prices will go up in six months. It may be that the price of the alternatives comes down in that time period too, or maybe not, nobody really knows. But if you use the PbA pack prudently, with about 30% maximum DOD, you should be very happy for a fair amount of time, but I would say definitely longer than 2 months unless you're recharging 5 times per day. And even 200 days gives a bit longer than six months at once per day, and with prudent use maybe even around 9 months.

 

I'll do my best to address your responses in order.

EV Mode:
You had asked if the enhanced mode mentioned uses the OEM Toyota EV mode--and yes, it does use the OEM Toyota EV mode which tries you keep the gasoline engine off as much as possible while under 34 MPH. I believe the most recent versions of the system require the gasoline engine to warm up before allowing EV mode for CARB (California Air and Resource Board) approval. Interestingly enough, using EV mode without letting the gasoline engine warmup first will actually significantly increase the emissions of your vehicle when the gasoline engine eventually does turn on because more power is being demanded from it.

If you only want EV behavior while the vehicle is below 34 MPH then you'll be fine with the default enhanced mode which is completely automatic. This way you avoid all the other issues that forced stealth mode raises while still getting good mileage.

Driving habits:
You will need to modify your driving habits slightly to get better mileage yes. The big thing is that your mileage will be significantly higher if you stay below 34 MPH because it can utilize the OEM toyota EV mode. At higher speeds you will find that your mileage will increase if you pulse (that is, accelerate harder) with the gasoline engine up to speed and then glide (that is, remove your foot from the accelerator and lightly put it back on) which should result in the gasoline engine either turning off or going into an idle mode where less gasoline is burned. This works because the gasoline engine is more efficient at higher load and is significantly less efficient when it is "idling" where the electric motors are more efficient.

Expectations:
Don't expect to see insane mileage at over 34 MPH speeds. Many people buy PHEVs with the expectation of 100+ MPG at all speeds and are disappointed when they only see 80 MPG tank averages. Mileage is heavily impacted based on your speed, temperature of the batteries and other driving habits. Unless you get really good at the pulse and glide method and other tricks, you probably will only see in the 80 MPG average range at over 34 MPH. You also are likely to see lower mileage over short trips since the gasoline engine burns a lot of fuel in the warmup stage.

Also, base your numbers and figures on tank averages instead of trip averages. Some trips are going to return lower mileage while others will return higher. It irks me when people reset their mileage counter, drive 5 miles and then post pictures of their MFD saying they are getting 152 MPG when they really are not.

Lithium Ion Batteries:
I know there are two lithium ion battery systems offered by Plugin Supply--one which may fit in the lead acid box and one which certainly won't fit (the 5 and 10 kw packs respectively). Assuming you are looking at the 5kwhr battery, that would be a significant improvement over lead acid yes. The lower weight and higher battery performance alone is probably worth the upgrade cost. I'm not sure what brand batteries they are using for the 5kwhr system these days but the battery life should be significantly more than what you would see with lead acid (and they are much better in the cold). You'll have to ask them what the life-expectancy of the batteries are though take the factory provided info with a grain of salt--it's in their best interest to make their battery look as good on paper as possible. Given the intense discharge pulses that the batteries will see you can safely assume they won't be in the most ideal circumstances for battery longevity.

Warranty:
I know Plugin Supply offers a limited warranty on the system (box, charger, control electronics), but I don't believe they offer a warranty on the batteries. I think they say that is up to the factory to warranty the batteries--but I'm not sure the factory actually does provide warranties. You should check with the manufacturer about this since those are a lot more expensive to replace than lead acid.

Scan Gauge:
Scan gauge is a relatively low cost utility that you can purchase from lots of online retailers (probably ebay too) that's roughly $160. Scangauge allows you to see data regarding the battery state of charge (that is, the Prius OEM battery), voltage and current. This certainly isn't necessary as the majority of the system is automatic, but it does help you know what the rough state of charge of the OEM battery is. Since the vehicle will attempt to spoof the car into thinking it has a significantly higher state of charge than it really does, it's impossible to tell what the state of charge /really is/ without a scan-gauge type tool. In the event of a system failure (say, one of the contactors got stuck on somehow) a quick eye might be able to identify the problem and quickly kill the system before the batteries get too over-charged. CANVIEW is another tool that you might be interested in--courtesy of Norm from CAN-view index. Now, if the contactors fail while the vehicle is charging--well, not much you can do about that. I know there are safety circuits on the control electronics to prevent such problems, but if a contactor were to physically get stuck on, there's not much you can do to protect against that.

Charger:
I think they use a Kingpan charger now adays which is a cheap Chinese made charger that I observed caused massive sparks when plugging it in due to a lack of inrush limiting and overheated a fair amount. I'm assuming they have improved on the design since then, but I don't think I was the first to notice that the chargers failed (that is, completely stopped working) much sooner than they should have--not to mention took a chunk out of my power cord... I think I went through three chargers or so over a 1 year period.

Anyway, these are some things to think about. I'm not trying to influence you to upgrade or not to upgrade, I'm just trying to provide some helpful insights. Hope it's helpful.

Andrew

 

You are very correct when you say it depends heavily on how you use them. It also depends on how frequently you charge. Lead acid batteries get damaged if you leave them discharged for too long. They also have a shelf life to consider--even if you don't use them often the performance will degrade over time.

Living in a cold environment is also not good for lead acid. In addition to the obvious issue with drawing unregulated large current from a freezing cold battery, the cells can become unbalanced much quicker due to the different internal resistance among cells. Lead acid batteries become more efficient (lower internal resistance) the warmer they get (within reason of course) and thus they will have a higher overall capacity. If the batteries along the outside (closest to the air intake perhaps) get warmer quicker because of the ambient cabin air (or exhaust from the charger) these cells will retain a higher state of charge during charge and discharge. Even if you have no air circulation at all for your batteries, there is no way to enforce a standardized temperature throughout all the batteries.

This means the colder cells will retain a lower state of charge and become out of sync with the rest. The result (over time) is that the cells toward the middle of the pack become significantly weaker because the pack continues to deplete until the cells on the outside (with the higher capacity) are empty.

This can cause the weaker batteries to actually start leaking acid even though they are technically sealed. I even saw one instance where the polarity of the battery terminals switched because it got so over-discharged. It generally isn't pretty.

I suppose this problem could be partly avoided with a BMS for the lead acid batteries, but it seems kind of pointless for a $900 BMS to protect $600 worth of batteries...The whole point of lead acid is that they are cheap.

Andrew

 

You are welcome. Again, I'm not trying to say "buy this" or "don't buy this" I'm simply sharing my experiences with said system. Since you already bought the lead acid, yeah I think it makes sense to wait until they die to consider you're alternatives since for the moment the upgrade to lithium is space-compatible.

As for forced stealth--it's more about safety than speed (not having power when you need it). The over-revving condition on the motors starts once you pass around 41 MPH without running the gasoline engine (the way the Prius drivetrain is designed, the gasoline engine must be spinning at > 41 MPH speeds to keep MG2 within rated RPM limits). Clearing the accumulated engine data (every time forced stealth is used) can result in rougher rides as the engine has to re-collect calibration data.

I'm glad to hear they fixed the inrush problem with the charger (or so it would seem). My charger sounded like dynamite the first time I plugged it in...

Andrew

 

It's about the same--you still have incredible amounts of energy being transferred between the batteries. The OEM battery is the one that directly drives the vehicle and the auxiliary battery charges the OEM battery--thus, the OEM battery is always in use. It's true that during acceleration the current comes partly from the auxiliary battery (goes straight through the OEM battery), but you're still looking at pretty high current transfer between the two batteries. It's unregulated current transfer too which means that if the OEM battery can only handle being charged at 40 amps there is nothing (aside from the voltage of the auxiliary battery) stopping the auxiliary battery from transferring at much higher current.

Andrew

 

Hmmm...I really doubt they actually get 800 cycles though I can't say for sure not having seen the batteries in question. That seems way too good for a lead acid chemistry battery. What depth of discharge percentage were they assuming (how far down do they get discharged during a normal cycle)? What remaining percentage of usable battery capacity were they assuming for cycle life--70% capacity?

As for the oil, there is some debate as to whether or not that's true. I use fully synthetic oil in my car and am careful to make sure I replace it routinely at 5k miles because with the engine off more there is less oil being circulated during normal driving. Less oil being circulated could lead to less lubrication on the powertrain (though I'm not a mechanic). I've heard convincing arguments supporting and against this. Hobbit would probably be a better resource on this than I would.

As for your engine block, I think with a Prius your engine block isn't going to go bad for a very long time even just as a standard hybrid =).

Andrew

 

The CSB EVX12200 (20ah) battery has a CLAIMED life of around 700 cycles at 50% DOD, and a spectacular 1800 cycles at 30% DOD.

So even if those claims are off, you can see what a huge effect going past 30% DOD does to the batteries. That is 10800 ah of "use" at 30% DOD, but only 7000 ah of "use" at 50% DOD, or a difference of 54% increase by keeping it to 30% DOD.

The real problem is that a cheap 20ah battery may really only last 200 cycles or so even at 30% DOD, so you really need to know the quality PbA battery manufacturers.

And greatly affecting battery life no matter the percentage of DOD is temperature, which really isn't pointed out in any of the charts the battery manufacturers put out. If I remember correctly, every 10°C rise in temperature (over 25°C) cuts the battery life in half, but every 10°C decrease doubles the life. But that is just a very rough approximation.

 

Yes, the battery will not deliver near as much power when it is cold, but it will actually deliver more power than rated when it is hot. Here is a chart showing what the effect of temperature is:

Battery Life and How To Improve It

If you go partially down the page you will see the graph which really shows how this works. There is a lot of other information about batteries there too.