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150mpg Prius

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by Anonymous, Mar 7, 2005.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

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    #1 Anonymous, Mar 7, 2005
  2. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    cool.. but i wonder what the running cost and install cost is?.. i know those batteries are not cheap. how much do they cost? how long will they last. what's the cost of electricity to charge them? electric plant pollution?

    it doesn't come with it's own huge solar away to charge it does it? :) hehe
     
    #2 V8Cobrakid, Mar 7, 2005
  3. mspencer

    mspencer New Member

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    I can't find a bugmenot entry for that site -- does anyone have a community login? Or do we dare post the article text here?
     
    #3 mspencer, Mar 7, 2005
  4. Dr.Jay

    Dr.Jay New Member

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    Too bad I can't see the rest of the article.
    Some where I read about the thought that went into the battery choice for the Prius (toyota Japan webSite I think).
    Lithium Ion batteries were considered but cost was about 3x higher than NiMH and they would not take repeated charge/dis-charge cycles like the NiMH so total life would be shorter.
    Anyone read the whole article? Did they mention life expectancy?
     
    #4 Dr.Jay, Mar 7, 2005
  5. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    Isn't this something similar to what Wayne Brown from the Y! groups was doing in his Prius - though he was using Lead-Acid (PbA) type batteries, no?
     
    #5 HTMLSpinnr, Mar 8, 2005
  6. Anonymous

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    The EnergyCS project looks like it was basically the same as the Priusplus yahoo group project, though the yahoo group were going to slowly work their way up to lithium (ie test it all out with lead acid, then move up to NiMH, then finally Lithium). I think the two groups were co-operating at the very least to crack Toyota's HSD codes.

    The Saphions used in the conversion are inherently very safe - as a result of using an unusual phosphate based chemistry. (You can read about this aspect of them here). So no danger of fires, even with abuse.

    The phosphate chemistry also has the potential for thousands of charge/discharge cycles, to the point where they reckon it will last for the life of the car! Environmentally benign too, as without cobalt they are much less toxic and can be dumped in landfill.

    In fact my only gripe about the Saphions is the mediocre energy density - only about 100Wh/kg, when you can buy Sony LiIons (admittedly not so easy going safety-wise) at 220Wh/kg.

    As for the cost of the batteries, I'm not sure (I don't have access to the whole article), but it's encouraging that the company making them point out that it's in their best interests to make them as cheaply as possible, so they are doing everything they can to keep pulling the price down. By the way, LiIon can often be cheaper than lead acid - 18650 LiIon is now at about $300 per kWhr, so this would place the battery in this conversion at just under $3,000 (though this can only come down with time and volume).

    Running costs? Assuming gas at $2 per gallon and electricity at 10 cents per kWh, about 2 cents per mile on electric-only, and 4 cents per mile on gas-only - so when making the most of assist, possibly averaging out at around 2.5 cents per mile?

    Or of course virtually free if you make your own electricity at home! ;)
     
    #6 Anonymous, Mar 8, 2005
  7. sdgeiger

    sdgeiger Junior Member

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    This is an interesting concept. It's nice that they can get such good gas mileage, but unless I'm missing something, you end up losing much of your trunk space.
     
    #7 sdgeiger, Mar 8, 2005
  8. prius04

    prius04 New Member

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    Remember everyone, over a hundred billion dollars has been spent on R&D for the internal combustion engine since it was invented 100 years ago, and probably a lot more than that.
    These guys have done something that GM and Exxon have told us can't be done and they have done it on a shoestring.
    So let's not criticize them because of some lost trunk space or installation expenses. First you make the car and prove the technology, then you start working on making it smaller and cheaper.
    And from what I see in the picture, they have taken suprisingly little of the trunk. I used to think a plug in hybrid was 5 years away, now I think I might be able to afford one in 2 or 3.

    And there have been some great strides in solar in the last 5 years as well. Who knows, it may actually be reasonable that non- "treehuggers/first-adopters" will be off the grid in 5 years. (Or at least 50% off the gird in that time.)
     
    #8 prius04, Mar 8, 2005
  9. Anonymous

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    Re the bootspace thing: It's interesting to note that Toyota themselves have curiously left quite a large empty space under the boot floor for some strange reason. Of course this an odd design quirk, as the vehicle could clearly have been designed to have more boot space and it's not clear why they decided to 'throw away' this free space.

    I think some of the Priusplus folk see it as evidence that Toyota deliberately left that empty space there so that in future revisions of the Prius they wouldn't have to completely redesign the car to allow incorporation of additional battery packs (ie for a future plug-in hybrid).

    Toyota are keeping really quiet about it, but there are already rumours that they are testing 60 mile range plug-in hybrids in Japan this year. Come to think of it, why else would they bother to fly UC Davis Prof. Andy Frank's plug-in hybrid Explorers over to Japan for their engineers to pore over if they weren't thinking about doing the same thing themselves?
     
    #9 Anonymous, Mar 8, 2005
  10. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    I'm DYING for a plug in hybrid. My town charges 5.546 cents per kilowatt hour for hydroelectric and 8.046 cents per kilowatt hour for wind.

    Talk about a "clean" car... There are 5 or 6 Rav4-EV's running around Colorado as well, I chased one down a while back and accosted the driver, all but demanding a test drive. He's offered to let me drive it some time in the future!

    (What if I don't give it back?)

    Nate
     
    #10 naterprius, Mar 8, 2005
  11. sdgeiger

    sdgeiger Junior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius\";p=\"70598)</div>
    Unfortunately the RAV4-EV was discontinued. My wife wanted one badly and we were prepared to drive out to California to purchase one. Alas, that can't happen now.
     
    #11 sdgeiger, Mar 9, 2005
  12. naterprius

    naterprius Senior Member

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    I tried to get a Rav4 EV as well. You had to be a California Resident to buy one...

    Nate
     
    #12 naterprius, Mar 9, 2005
  13. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    i want one now.. hehe too bad no one will sale them.
     
    #13 V8Cobrakid, Mar 9, 2005
  14. 200Volts

    200Volts Member

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    Too bad they're not using LITHIUM POLYMER batteries. These have the highest power/weight ratio and can deliver very high currents. Cost is higher and there is a fire danger if not charged correctly. These are state of the are for radio controlled planes drawing 5-75 amps at 8-16 volts.
     
    #14 200Volts, Mar 9, 2005
  15. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Well, the one great thing about living in Winnipeg Manitoba - asides from nice people and *awesome* ethnic restaurants just a 2 block walk from my condo - is the power cost here is about the lowest in North America:

    Basic monthly service charge is $6.75. The first 175 KWh is billed at 5.78 cents a KWh, the remainder at 5.496 cents a KWh.

    I would *love* a "plug in" option for the Prius!

    Although I too would have safety concerns using Li batteries in a car. In the event of a post-crash fire there would be serious safety concerns.
     
    #15 jayman, Mar 9, 2005
  16. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    wow your power is cheap... considering that i live in the middle of hydroelectric land, i figured we would get good rates.

    but we only get rates as good as yours in the summer time. right now the rates are 6.3
     
    #16 DaveinOlyWA, Mar 9, 2005
  17. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Well, the Province of Manitoba was very wise in exploiting all that hydroelectric potential. Most of the power is sold South of the border, which helps keep the rates low here.

    If you live in a rural area here and have a properly installed geothermal heat pump for your new home, the heating and cooling costs are unbelievably low.

    Big *if* though, a "properly installed" geothermal heat pump.
     
    #17 jayman, Mar 9, 2005
  18. Anonymous

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman\";p=\"70979)</div>
    That's the thing though, the Saphions have traded some energy density for a chemistry that won't (can't) catch fire unlike some other earlier forms of LiIon chemistry.

    However I do agree that www.bridgestone-eu.com/articles.asp%3FID%3D1187+phoslyte&hl=en]safety modification[/url] of LiPoly would be the best way to go in the near term, and would halve the weight and size of the battery pack at a stroke. After that, LiS. ;)
     
    #18 Anonymous, Mar 10, 2005
  19. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Sounds good, has that additive been deployed yet?
     
    #19 jayman, Mar 10, 2005
  20. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    #20 V8Cobrakid, Mar 11, 2005
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