2016 Prius or 2016 Volt...Which should I buy?

Discussion in 'Gen 4 Prius Main Forum' started by westy72658, Sep 24, 2015.

  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Gen-1 Volt pointed out that "reasonable" price only applied to early-adopters, that even with tax-credit help sales were a struggle. Gen-1 also revealed that full-power EV driving wasn't the big draw, that people were more interested in using as little gas as possible.

    Gen-2 Volt offers greater EV range, but at the tradeoff of cost, weight, and size. That makes it a harder sale compared to the larger plug-in hybrids offering less capacity and highly-efficient blending. If you don't drive far enough to take advantage of Volt's entire battery-capacity, what's the sales draw?

    Gen-1 PiP demonstrated that faster engine shut-off was what owners most wanted. Their goal was to significantly reduce gas consumption, not to use as much electricity as possible. Seeing the benefits of blending made that easy. MPG was well above what a regular hybrid could deliver. Keeping engine use brief was key.

    Gen-2 PiP will deliver an engine even more efficient along with some level of increased battery-capacity. That will draw interest. Keeping cost as a high priority will allow it to be competitively priced. We'll find out next year what the targets were. The point is, it too is a transitional vehicle.

    As always, the catch is how many the automaker produces & sells. Technological achievement is validated by consumer acceptance, not engineering praise. Put your way, the bridge is only effective is people use it to cross. It must be used. Automakers are in the business to make money... which is what Gen-2 is supposedly for.
     
  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Funny. Gen 1 PiP showed that people wanted that EV driving experience, even at the expense of overall energy consumption (gas + electricity). i.e. even though Toyota designed the PiP to use the least amount of fuel and electricity, by combining the benefits of HSD, the consumer market (ok, early adopters) clearly wanted an EV driving experience and the engine to stay off as much as possible, even if it's more efficient to use gasoline to power the vehicle under certain scenarios.
     
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    There were some who wanted that. We heard from them too, but there were many more who simply wanted more range.
     
  4. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    I think everyone wants more range.
     
  5. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Range is good. I would carefully weigh that against weight of vehicle, size of battery (so basically battery energy density) and sustainable power output. Toyota's in a weird position where they're trying to make a hybrid with a bigger battery so they have investments in both the engine technology and the battery technology. GM started from scratch with a dedicated vehicle designed to be an electric car and simply have a gas engine as a backup. They don't have the "baggage" of having to produce an efficient hybrid.
     
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The car itself was dedicated, but the system wasn't. Gen-1 Volt is in really Gen-2 Two-Mode. Detail of the generational advancement is available on the gm-volt website. It's interesting to see how GM went through the process of change. Re-adaptation of that design can be found in the upcoming Malibu hybrid and CTS plug-in too. In other words, they have baggage as well.
     
  7. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    I'm not quite sure what you meant about Gen-1 above. The Gen-1 transaxle was based on many parts taken from a FWD Two-Mode transaxle that was going to be in a product that got cancelled. However, the actual design of the Gen-1 transaxle inner workings is very different from the older Two-Mode.
    Gen-2 is, again, very different internally than Gen-1.

    The 2016 Volt and 2016 Malibu hybrid transaxles are nearly identical except that the Volt's smaller motor generator that uses ferrite permanent magnets was replaced with a more typical permanent magnet motor which is more efficient for hybrid duty cycles. Also, an unnecessary clutch where the engine axle comes into the transaxle was removed for the Malibu since it is only used to support the Volt's dual motor EV mode which is primarily useful when the battery pack can put out more power than the bigger motor can handle by itself. The Malibu's smaller hybrid battery can't put out enough power to make use of dual motor mode.

    There are few specific details known about the CT6 hybrid transmission other than it can handle a total system output of 335 HP (250 kW) and it is RWD. It is probably similar in internal architecture to the Volt/Malibu but that's just a guess.








    Merged.





    Some "excess" battery capacity is good. People have some variation in their typical driving patterns and some "excess" helps keep the driving experience all-electric if they drive a little farther on some days. Also, some padded capacity helps to accomdate for winter reductions in driving range due to less wheel traction, colder battery chemistry that holds and releases less energy, and increased energy use by the cabin heater.

    With the bigger battery size and more confidence in the battery longevity, GM is now using a greater usable percentage of the nominal battery size. The first generation Volt used 65% of the battery, the ELR used closer to 70%, and the new Volt seems to use around 76% which is close to what Ford uses on the Energi's but with a battery less than half the size (Ford's 7.6 kWh vs 18.4 kWh). In any case, if an owner is using somewhat less than the full 53 miles and 14 kWh of usable Volt capacity on a typical day then it will tend to enhance their battery longevity by using less than 76% and not fully cycling the battery upon recharge.

    "Wasted" battery is generally not something worth worrying about unless the car's range is a major mismatch like someone driving only 10 miles a day normally. Over the lifetime of the car, the CO2 emissions saved from driving electric in most areas will very likely more than make up for the added manufacturing CO2 overhead of a little extra battery capacity.
     
    #187 Jeff N, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2015
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  8. DeanFL

    DeanFL 2010 owner - 1st Prius

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    Well, our plan to check out the Gen4 Prius and Volt in Spring '16 - and potentially choose which is best for us...and sell our 2010 Prius> change in plans. Finally determined the details re the Volt $7500 tax credit etc. We are retired and have minimal actual taxable income - so....the tax credit would be $0. That results in paying actual price for a Volt...nope. Certainly not worth that. so, will stick with our Gen3 till another interesting choice comes up-doesn't appear the Gen4 does it for us.
     
  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    It could be explained by the incentives that favor big battery pack. If you can get more EV range without additional "price" (not cost), people may sacrifice interior room and overall efficiency to chase for more EV miles. I think $7,500 lured many into kWh lust which end in defensive mode to justify their purchase.
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    We've seen that a lot.

    The more-is-better mindset blinds logic and they don't discover the overkill/sacrifice until afterward.
     
  11. bedrock8x

    bedrock8x Senior Member

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    If you can get employee discount, the $35K Volt would cost you only $25K or less, plus 7.5K tax rebate.
    That is a great value for the Volt at $17.5K.


     
  12. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    In a lease, the lease finance company gets the $7,500 so that is reflected in a better/lower than usual lease rate. As a retiree you may not drive a lot, so a 10k mile/yr term might be fine for you and those come the lowest payments.
     
  13. DeanFL

    DeanFL 2010 owner - 1st Prius

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    Lease is a no-go. We live in a huge retirement community in FL, and use our golf cart quite a bit. Now we may put on 5K miles per year in the Prius - a '10 with 63k. And paid cash for the Prius, runs perfectly etc, not 'wealthy' with $$ to burn etc - so why the interest in another new car. foolishness I guess - but the Volt's out of the picture now.
     
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  14. BWATL

    BWATL New Member

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    That's certainly not true in every case. Toyota is having some serious drive train issues with their Tacomas. I got burned badly on a 2005 X-Runner that failed just after the warranty expired. It was a known, recurring problem that had an associated TSB. Toyota was quietly replacing transmissions but would never publicly admit it was a huge problem, and left many customers holding the bag on a very expensive repair. That problem still persists through the 2014 model. A family member had much of the drive train replaced on a 2014 Tacoma Pre-Runner before 20k miles. The Prius since 2010 has been a very reliable car, though older models had many electrical issues. To say Toyota always builds "trouble-free" cars widely misses the mark.
     
  15. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    [​IMG]

    Thats why all these reliability surveys exist, so we know whats happening to everyone vs someones "opinion".

    Tesla Model S "Not Recommended" by Consumer Reports
     
  16. TC400

    TC400 Active Member

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    I was in the same dilemma until I found out you cannot get the Volt with a sunroof. So no deal.
     
  17. TeamD

    TeamD New Member

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    I contemplated the same choice for quite some time. With 2 kids and a dog though, space was king, so I purchased the Prius v wagon. Room for the family, the dog, and still handles our Costco trips with no problem.
     
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I am very much looking forward to seeing what the Mdel S, "would buy again" percentage does as the reliability improves.
     
  19. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    It is 97% now... so I dont think it can improve much more.
     
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  20. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I'm rooting for 99% (y)
     
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