4th Gen PiP?

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by JEP, Nov 20, 2015.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'm just trying to figure this out: we have a whole new chassis/body. they move the battery under the seat, but with a spare tyre, the deck is the same height as before. the extra space is taken up by the new rear suspension. where is more battery going to go?

    no e-four, electric cabin heater or more range, what will the gen IV pip get?
     
    #21 bisco, Nov 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2015
  2. roflwaffle

    roflwaffle Member

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    I think it's less than that. People are seeing ~3kWh from the plug, which would be ~2.7kWh assuming 90% charger efficiency.

    Electric battery degradation | Page 5 | PriusChat

    The current pack is also ~10ft^3, so an extra ~7ft^3 should allow for an extra ~4+kWh of usable capacity. Going from a usable ~2.7kWh to ~6.7kwh alone would bump range from ~11 miles to `~27 miles. Efficiency improvements would probably push the car over ~30 miles.

    https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/staticcontent/en/techinfo/html/prelogin/docs/priusphvdisman.pdf

    That's assuming Toyota keeps the cargo volume of the gen-iii and gen-iv pip the same. If cargo capacity for the new pips is the same as the new nimh models, there would need to be increases in energy density to get the car to ~30 miles.
     
    #22 roflwaffle, Nov 24, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  3. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Good question. I'm wondering the same thing. Toyota might come up with a super flat battery pack so that the floor height is the same as those with the spare tire. This also means the PiP could handle a bit worse because of the heavier weight and the higher centre of gravity.
     
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  4. Redpoint5

    Redpoint5 Senior Member

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    I've seen it talked about in other threads extensively. I understand people have optimism about the range of the next gen PiP and want it to exceed other vehicles on the market, but it simply isn't going to happen. Even if Toyota can fit a gigawatt hour battery, they won't do it for cost reasons. Most PiP buyers wouldn't want to pay the added cost of having a 30+ mile EV range. Why would Toyota more than double the range? How often do manufacturers more than double anything? I find it more reasonable that Toyota would increase the PiP range by a similar percentage as Chevy increased the new Volt. Chevy's significant range increase was 40%. A similar range increase for the PiP would be about 15 miles.

    There is almost no way the next gen Toyota will have more than 25 miles of range, and more probably 15-20.
     
    #24 Redpoint5, Nov 24, 2015
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    there are no nigh /pip models.

    agreed, i thought you were referring to the thread you posted in.
     
  6. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Do we have some pictures of under the cargo deck to compare Gen 3 and Gen 4 Liftbacks? That should give a decent idea, no?
     
  7. markabele

    markabele owner of PiP, then Leaf, then Model 3

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    Not sure why people keep saying the PiP was sold for such a huge premium compared to the regular Gen3. Maybe at the very beginning it did. But since 2013 many of us paid less for the PiP than a comparably equipped regular Gen3.
     
  8. roflwaffle

    roflwaffle Member

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    That forward slash should be an and. But yeah, if toyota keeps the same 24+ft^3 for the new pip that they have with the NiMH version, there won't be as much room for a larger battery.

    I think it's a possibility. Shoot, they may even have different battery sizes in the pip. Probably not, but it's a possibility. I imagine it depends on a bunch of things (battery costs, how well the competition is doing, battery durability in the current pip, etc...)

    An "industry insider" supposedly put range on the new pip at ~30-35 miles.

    Next Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid To Have 30 To 35 Miles Of Range: Source

    I don't think that's 30-35 miles on the EPA rating, but I could see going from ~16 miles on the JC08 to ~30-35 miles on the JC08, which would translate to ~20+ miles on the EPA rating and ~25+ miles real world (for me anyhow).

    Toyota Prius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
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  9. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

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    That would be the very best, like Tesla is doing.
     
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  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed, it would be cool, but unlikely. even volt and leaf are not doing it yet.
     
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  11. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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  12. evfinder

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    I also heard 35 miles of range but I suspect that's the Japanese test cycle so more like 23 miles frm EPA test cycle. On the cutout they had at the LA Auto Show the battery on the liftback was under the rear seat and theaux battery had been moved up front under the hood. Given the improvement in energy density I think an EPA rating of 23 miles is quite doable without encroaching on rear hatch space
     
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's hard to say without any battery physical size facts. perhaps someone knows the lift back lithium dimensions, kWh and weight, and we can extrapolate. 23 miles would be more than double. i can see 16-18. the question is, where is the space in that cutout? i hope you're right!(y)
     
  14. evfinder

    evfinder Member

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    There was quiet a bit of space under the rear seat but it is hard to say about the battery size as power densities have been increasing quit a bit since the current PIP was designed so I very much doubt that Toyota will use the same modules as the current model
     
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  15. roflwaffle

    roflwaffle Member

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    That was in the dismantling guide I linked to earlier. :coffee:

    HV Battery Assembly
    Battery assembly voltage
    207.2 V
    Number of Li-ion battery cells in the battery
    56 cells
    Li-ion battery cell voltage
    3.7 V
    Li-ion battery cell dimensions
    4.13 x 5.83 x 1.04 in.
    (105 x 148 x 27 mm)
    Li-ion cell weight
    1.60 lbs (726 g)
    Li-ion battery assembly dimensions
    29.4 x 37.3 x 6.9 in.
    (747 x 948 x 176 mm)
    Li-ion battery assembly weight
    168 lbs (76 kg)
     
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  16. bisco

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    how many kWh? tough to figure without that. for example, if we think the car can go 2 miles on battery, you would need 12 to go 24 miles, but that would probably only be 16 on the epa. to get 23 on the epa, you might need 16 lift back batteries. but wait, only a percentage of that battery is being used, so that throws the whole calculation off. we really need kWh.
     
    #36 bisco, Dec 7, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  17. roflwaffle

    roflwaffle Member

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    4.4kWh. Only ~2.7kWh are usable based on how much energy people are using when charging, but I think any additional capacity would be usable capacity because we already have a little less than 2kWh of capacity used as a buffer.
     
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  18. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    Usable battery capacity window in present PiP is ~62%.
    It seems that the new Lion battery for Gen4 has ~70% usable window.
    A new 7 kWh battery may have, say, ~72% usable capacity or 5 kWh which is 87% increase from current PiP battery, i.e. 87% increase in EV range.
    A new 7 kWh battery will have 60% increase in volume from current 4.4 kWh one, probably less taking into account possible new technology compacting.
    I do not see any place for a 7-7.5 kWh battery but the trunk, hope they can make it with minimum raising of deck to only be flush with hatch opening.
     
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  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    current 11 miles X 1.87 = 20.57?

    if i get 16 in good weather, that would equate to about 30 miles?
     
  20. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    Yes, 46-48 km for me in a good weather:)
     
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