A Honda guy conceding the IMA is no match for the HSD

It is the battery management system that keeps the battery cells in good state of charge and has nothing to with the IMA nor HSD propulsion system.
Let's say Honda does not have the expertise or the depth of technology to manage the battery cells in the classic Insight.
Toyota has many patents in the management of the NiMH battery packs.

 

Tell us more about this "grid charger". It sounds like it might be an alternative to replacing a bad Prius battery pack.

 

CRZ will have 6 speed manual. I wonder if Honda put in improvements in their BMS.

 

While would not disagree that the battery management system plays a critical role, it is not the main reason why the Toyota solution is superior.

Let us remember that Honda is still using the battery pack assemblies constructed with cylindrical cells. The whole pack is made of deep chains of cells arranged into modules and battery pack management systems perform their duties based on the monitoring they perform at the module level. This is inherently a more complex and risky design. Why?

Because the more cells you have in a battery, especially the ones you can neither monitor nor manage, the greater the risks of a potential failure.
Honda has a whole lot of experience in managing SoC and I am not aware of any IP or patents from Toyota that has limited their progress and improvement in the past or now.

But this kind of experience is the experience no automaker wants to have, and that is an experience borne out of necessity especially when you have to fight for the "low-end" scraps from Sanyo and Panasonic. This is one area where Toyota aced the game with their privileged access to the best (yields, production capacity,etc) Panasonic can provide.

As it stands, the battery management routines in current Honda hybrids are the most complex and convoluted of any implementation I have seen to date. So much so that Honda has increased the dependency in their latest hybrids on frequent and rather extensive software updates. In hindsight, this is the worst possible approach (not to mention costly) for any manufacturer regardless of of their technical prowess.

That is why, Honda has partnered with Yuasa. They desperately need access to better battery technology and better yields not only to get of the pit they're in but also to avoid the battery supply problems they had in 2007-2008. If you recall, HCH-II production did not exceed more than 78,000 per year because Panasonic could not deliver them that fast (Some speculated that Toyota was a higher priority).

The CR-Z will have a much lower "all-around" dependency on the electric contribution of the IMA system than any other (current or past) Honda hybrid. This will help free it from the frequent and chronic dipping into the battery pack that most Honda hybrids are known for.

In fact, the CR-Z will be the first Honda hybrid to truly approach (not reach) the pure definition of a Mild Hybrid since its designers intended it to act mostly as an electric supercharger than anything else.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Toyota group a module by 6 cells (Prius) or 8 cells (Camry, V6 or V8 HSDs). Honda group them by 12 so the management will be harder and less reliable.

HSD has more cells to manage than IMA too because the nature of full hybrid require more powerful and higher capacity. Prius has 168 cells vs. HCH II has 120 cells.

HSD has two electric motors so one can assist while the other generate. Electricity is available most of the time (exception of max acceleration) to pamper the HV battery pack. Honda's IMA does not have this luxury because there is only one electric motor.

I don't think cylindrical vs. prismatic cells made much difference. It probably had to do with Honda's decision to cut cost despite the lack of electricity on-demand in IMA.

 

Well said and quite accurate.

Unfortunately or not, an assembly made of prismatic cell implementation is often the most flexible and capable approach for automotive applications. Toyota appreciated the difference and made the decision to shift quite early in the game... and its relationship with Panasonic played a pivotal role in making it possible.

We're literally talking about a complete litany of advantages inherent to a prismatic design that span from packaging efficiencies, strategic heat management(*) and overall behavioral and operational characteristics just to mention a few. All this and more helps make a prismatic approach inherently superior.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

I think that Honda did just a fine job on mine. I replaced my original IMA battery at 401,000 miles. My 2001 Prius has 258,000 and has issues with the battery right now. May just need charged, may just need a few packs replaced; either way, the turd currently does not start. When my Insight threw the IMA light, I was able to drive it and still get 60-65 mpg. LOL.

 

I would agree IMA is no match for HSD -

Toyota started with a well rounded hybrid offering - Prius , Camry Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid. Now they are expanding into a Prius family.

Honda's Clarity shows what can be done, but is of no effect in the marketplace. The CR-Z will only sell in small numbers as a 2 seater. I don't think the Civic GX sells in much quanitity.

That leaves two Honda hybrids - Insight II and new Civic Hybrid, both of which are inferior to Prius (Civic's little trunk no match for Prius cargo area and hatchback utility).

 

Is handling and the driving experience not important in a car? Honda Civic Hybrids are a very well designed automobile over all and a great transpertation. It is also a very fuel efficient and it can pack suit cases and gear. For long items you can add a rack and a tote box if you need extra space or must take your bike on holidays. Why is a hatch or pass thru so important for you sedan? If there's a will there is always a way. Prius packs pack it in on occasion as well! I have one of each and enjoy both. Hal

 

To haul expensive drumset in individual cases and 46" tall hardware case - impossible to put these into a Civic, nor would I tote them in a trailer. I wouldn't put a 80 lb hardware case in back seat, nor a bass drum in front seat.

To easily place a bicycle into hatch area thus avoiding use of expensive roof rack which would lower your MPGs or rear rack which may scratch trunk area.

Bicycle on holiday? How about once at weekend to the ride meetup spot? Midweek you would lose fuel economy. No one should have to take rack on off every week. Plus they probably scratch your roof.

I could easily place both things into a Prius.

Why is a trunked car desirable to you?

 

I don't think any of us would argue that a hatch has more versatility than a traditional sedan in that sense. But, not everyone likes a hatch and not everyone needs one, either. Personally, I felt my 07 HCH handled much better and was a nicer driving experience compared to the Prius.

What I would like is a combination of the two items:

HCH handling, navi, steering, etc (basically, anything related to the handling)
Prius HSD system & engine

I like the hatch versatility, as the inability to lower the back seats in the HCH were a problem for me a few times. I actually ended up with an S10 for a little while (a used, 4 cyl model) so that I could carry stuff that wouldn't fit in the trunk.

Eventually, I sold the truck (wasn't being used enough), and traded the HCH on the Prius. I borrowed other people's vehicles if I need a truck, or I would rent them from Lowes/Home Cheapo. If that wasn't an option, my brother owns a Jeep Wrangler and I could usually con him into coming up and helping me.

 

which is exactly why I'd like to see Toyota and Honda join forces to build the ultimate Prius-like hybrid.

About the HCH, what was it like creeping in stop and go traffic?

Does the engine come on and go off a lot, like every time you need to move forward a bit? Prius is awesome in its ability to creep forward on battery in a jam or parking lot.

 

Amazing story. My CRX HF also got totaled at a stop light by a distracted driver ( Babysitter with 3 kids in the back seat) I too bought a 2000 Insight put about 270Kmi on it (Honda had replaced the pack for free at 180Kmi). When I sold it, it was still running great. Looked around for a replacement, ended up with 2010 Prius II as the only vehicle that could get close to the MPG . LMPG on Insight 1 was 62, Prius now 57. And I agree the HSD is outstanding , and far better then the IMA. If only the Prius weighed in at the same 1800#, imagine the mpg. I would go back to Honda if they could get their MPG back up. Honda service locally was so great - could actually talk with the techs, and Honda stood behind mine. Toyota you can only deal with the Service rep - so you only get it all second hand.

 

It is good in rush hr. stop and go. The ICE starts when you move and stops when the car stops. 20hp will not move the car from a stop but once going it will keep it going on the flat. Hal

 

I like (and own) the Honda Civic Hybrid. I do like the way they look and drive better than the prius (put Si Wheels on ours, man does it look good)

-BUT-

The HCH can't beat the Prius as an all around great car and gas saver. So, I tell everyone that ask me, if you're just going to own just 1 vehicle, 100% go with the Prius.

Example: This weekend, went and bought a large frame bicycle, the Prius was able to hold me, my wife, and the bike, all inside the car, with no problem.

 

Yeh, but that plastic scratches real easy, so be careful! H

 

No worries. I have the 1up bike rack coming Monday. ... can't wait to get back on the bike trails.