About the 100+MPG at Calcar. Anyone actually have that installed IFL?

Real-World data is still not available. So some of us are disappointed.

We are very curious what an actual commute, consisting of a mixture of city & highway, will provide. MPG will obviously be well under their misleading "100+" emblem. It's a misconception in the making.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 30 2006, 10:57 PM) [snapback]294892[/snapback]</div>

I'm sure some people would be able to get that, particularly those in warmer climates with short, low-speed commutes and they plug in every night. If people in Chicago proper can beat the EPA, 100mpg is feasible with that much added battery power. Most likely not the average person though.

I am disappointed it's taking Edrive so long to come to market. So far they're 6 months behind schedule, and likely to continue that trend. They're still doing preliminary tests on a small number of vehicles and apparently they're trying out different battery packs, there's a new one, more expensive ($14K instead of $12K +/-), but it's got a couple more years of predicted lifespan. (Go to edrivesystems.com and follow the link to their yahoo groups page). Note that Edrive is the commercial endeavour, not to be confused with CalCars which is an academic exercise, and not selling to the public.

Meanwhile Hymotion seems to be moving along. They're still in fleet testing, not yet selling to consumers, either. They're proposing a slightly cheaper system, probably a smaller battery pack, and it's an additional battery pack, it doesn't replace the existing one, like EDrive does. When the added Li-Ion battery pack drains below some value after EV use, it drops back into normal stock NiMH-battery mode. Still they're claiming similar mpg numbers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Jul 31 2006, 01:09 AM) [snapback]294918[/snapback]</div>

There is another alternative in the works from the people participating in eaa-phev.org with PiPRIUS under research, development and tweeking, soon to be offer to the kit builder enthusiast in a more affordable way to have your own PHEV at the door if the money is not a big impediment . Always, this kind of things are in progress for the better and one of the best examples to mention is also the incredible CANView from Hybridinterfaces.

 

I saw one built in Seattle. Alas no data. This was yet another home brew helped out by Cal Cars and used lead acid batteries pigged on the installed battery. I suspect they are looking at many different solutions to the problem of turning the Prius in to a plug in. Go for it I say. Toyota will not, is not going to sit back and let other people profit from a plug in. I am firmly convinced that the next Prius will have at least a plug in option. I also hope that it will have a home generating option. That would be a real boon to any natural disaster. Imagine what would happen if 1/4 or even a 1/3 of cars in a community could generate 3 KWH efficiently during a major outage. I think this would be a major boon to the population. Major earthquake in Seattle and all the doctors and nurses, and hospital personnel hook their cars up to power the hospital on a rotating basis then go home and support their families. We may yet need that kind of back up!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Jul 30 2006, 09:57 PM) [snapback]294892[/snapback]</div>

John, why do you not believe 100+ is possible? Have you ever had the pleasure of driving in the car with full green (8 bars) battery? I have. After coming down the mountain, the car easily shows 99.9 for the first little while. After the battery drops to 6 blue bars, the car begins to run like normal. While in full green and on the flats, the car is extremely conservative with respect to its use of the ICE. If the car will stay in this mode while the battery is "full" (or faked to be full with a second battery), then the car can easily get the extremely high MPG's. I don't see 100+ as a misconception at all.

Granted, when the extra battery runs low, the jig is up, and you're back to 40-50 MPG. But, until then, enjoy the benefits.

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Aug 1 2006, 12:53 PM) [snapback]295755[/snapback]</div>

I do believe. Of course it's possible... but not under all conditions.

A daily commute consisting of some 70 MPH cruising and some Stop & Slow driving with the heater on is very, very, very, very, very common here all throughout the cold season. That most definitely will *NOT* yield 100+ MPG. It is a real-world condition not represented in their generalized claim.

If you have been lead to believe the real-world average will be 100+, you've been greenwashed. I'd like to know what an annual average consisting of mixed driving actually is. They have yet to provide that data.

 

Agreed, not under all conditions, particularly not in cold weather or extremely long commutes.

But, 100+ seems possible under my circumstances; 18 miles each way, charging on both sides, mild weather here in Colorado.

Believe me, I'm the last guy to be "greenwashed." I don't buy Hydrogen, Ethanol, Biodiesel, Fuel Cells, etc as viable solutions, the theories just don't hold up.

But, 100+ seems entirely possible with more battery. The car does behave "mostly electric" when the battery is full, even at high speeds.

You still haven't answered my question, have you ever had your Prius up to eight green bars? Did you notice the way it drove?

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Aug 1 2006, 06:31 PM) [snapback]295963[/snapback]</div>

Read my blogs. My experiences with that are well documented there.

I thoroughly enjoyed it, which is why I want full disclosure from the beginning. We are more likely to achieve rapid adoption of the plug-in ability when people have realistic expectations. After all, that option isn't cheap.

The "personal data" approach has already proven very beneficial with the Classic & HSD models of Prius. Why not the plug-in too?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2006, 07:39 PM) [snapback]295988[/snapback]</div>

Starting? For the last 6 years I have fought those that generically lump all types of hybrids into a single category. Intentionally surpressing vital information definitely matches that behavior.

What the heck is wrong with saying a plug-in hybrid will yield an 80 MPG annual real-world average?

The "100+" is definitely misleading when stated without any disclaimer whatsoever... even worse than the EPA window-sticker, which at least has tiny print to point out that results may vary.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Aug 1 2006, 03:03 PM) [snapback]295924[/snapback]</div>

John tis is after all CAL cars as in California. They would die in your neck of the woods. Those in So Cal put on sweaters at 65! The rally guys got >100 mpg in Pittsburgh in summer in a stock Prius. It is a blend. Each of has weather and "weather is" No you will not get 100 mpg with a plug in during winter at 70 mph anytime soon. They are just tweaking us and Toyota. Pushing the envelope is what Real Americans do. Shove here, shove there and soon it is a different world, men on the moon, a tween on a skate board cruising on the side of the road talking on a cell phone! Saw it today. Mind boggling a kind not yet a teen with a cell phone and male! So let us celebrate pushing the envelope. It is what we do, even if we have to make the Japanese do it for us!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Aug 1 2006, 08:23 PM) [snapback]296004[/snapback]</div>

And I totally enjoy that friendly sparring. The want to get enhanced electric abilities out as quickly as possible is really getting to me. Piling on the real-world data is an effective remedy.

There are simply too many unknowns still that must be addressed... like will a dealer have any quibble performing a routine comprehensive 30,000-interval service if you have an aftermarket battery-pack?

 

John, I agree we need the real world data. Your website is awesome, and you are a great resource to the Hybrid community.

However, you seem convinced that 100+ is NOT POSSIBLE. Your comments are full of skepticism and doubt.

I agree, we need to see some real results to settle this, but in the meantime, some optimism seems to be in order.

Nate

 

I'm being objective. Claiming 100+ is possible under all conditions without any data to support it is not. Why not just say a "dramatic increase" instead?

As for doubt, I have already expressed full confidence in the technology itself. That's definitely "some optimism". I suggest a re-examination of priorities. What are your goals?

 

Well, my main goal is to displace gasoline consumption with electricity. I for one do not care if the car goes 10 miles on electric and then 10 miles at 50 MPG or goes 20 miles on a blend that achieves 100 MPG. This is enough to cut oil consumption significantly. A "True EV Mode" would be nice, but not if it adds even more complexity (and cost) to the system and offers a very short all-EV range.

Either way, more data is better.

My goal wrt expressing optimism is to encourage the production of these vehicles.

Nate

 

My goal is mass-acceptance, where the penetration level is on the magnitude of front-wheel drive. Becoming ubiquitous like means having a tremendous amount of patience. That also means there will be quite a bit of resistance to deal with, since the competition will sense the standard changing out of their favor. So the best you can realistically hope for is a series of minor successes over a long span of time.

In this case, I figured 10 years. Having been a programmer for twice that duration now, I've been involved with projects that take quite a number of years to go from the planning stage to the point where the software finally becomes an everyday tool... which is precisely what I want the hybrids to become.
So now, 6 years into the effort, I can look back and identify several minor successes. We are approaching that ultimate goal, but it won't be reached anytime soon. You can promote the next-generation all you want. But it won't get people to skip steps.

A hybrid that runs on any ratio of gas, ethanol, and electricity will be fantastic. It won't readily be accepted by consumers though. Currently, many still ponder the worth of hybrids in general. So one that offers a plug today is well beyond the reach of their wallet... which is why I like Toyota's approach so much. People can clearly see the effort to deliver more from electricity without being so fundamentally different that its mass-acceptance is questioned. HSD hasn't fallen victim of the "alternative" label stigma. It's subtle enough to be considered a natural step forward.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Jul 30 2006, 11:09 PM) [snapback]294918[/snapback]</div>

And, don't forget Hybrids Plus in that list B)

The PHEV wiki has a Table that lists all the Prius conversion options to date.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hdrygas @ Jul 31 2006, 10:39 PM) [snapback]295478[/snapback]</div>

OK if its generating off of the engine its gonna use gas gotta remember that vital little point. A car engine (even the pious') is designed to run efficiently and well over a 'wide' range of conditions of load and speed. A generator like that in a hospital can provide significantly more energy at better efficiency because its built to do that to run at one RPM and load. not to mention they would have a store of fuel oil/diesel in stock to keep it running, at the output they need. in a natural disaster like katrina gasoline usually becomes just as scarce a commodity as anythign else even more so because you need electricity to pump it at gas stations the prius could in no way shape or form generate enough energy to so much as run a house much less a hospital...do you think your prius can perfectly slice your bread to? it may be nifty and new but its not the ultimate answer like some think.