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Aftermarket Speakers Having Issues

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Audio and Electronics' started by Experimental, Feb 6, 2007.

  1. Experimental

    Experimental New Member

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    As some of you may have caught before, I've been working on a speaker upgrade in an '05 Prius with a non-JBL audio system. We installed the rear door speakers (Pioneer 6.5" 3 -way speakers - model TS-A1671R) and compared them to the stock front door speakers...and the results were not that great. In fact, if I didn't know any better, I would almost think I got the polarity wrong on the new speakers.

    The front stock speakers are much clearer, much better bass, louder, etc....just overall sound much better. I have come to the conclusion that the headunit just is not putting out enough wattage for the new Pioneer speakers. I've heard that most stock headunits put out around 3-5 watts RMS...and quite frankly that's not enough to push a set of 3 way speakers.

    So we took the "Tim "The ToolMan" approach...MORE POWER! Yes, we purchased an amp. An Infinity Reference 7541a...111 watts RMS x 4. You can find the same amp at the link below.

    http://www.crutchfield.com/S-paPhHpKD2SS/c...amp;I=108R7541A

    Seemed like a fairly good amp...we're not looking to build a competition system...just looking for a better, clearer, cleaner sound.

    We also just received our large order of Dynamat...after seeing how much sound insulation Toyota did not put in the doors, we had to add something...and decided to really do a nice job...we're thorough like that. :D

    We're at the point (and keep this in mind, we're not car audio people) where we need to figure out what else we need. We know we're going to need some good speaker wire to handle 111 watts RMS to each speaker, some nice 12v power cable to go to the battery, some nice ground wire, fuse, and fuse holder for between the amp and the car battery.

    I know the amp has high level inputs...so does that mean we can just stick the signal for each speaker from the headunit directly into the amp instead of running into something like a Pac OEM-2? (referenced in the link below) Would it be cleaner to run into the Pac OEM-2 and then to the amp, or just let the amp do it's thing with the high level inputs?

    http://www.crutchfield.com/S-paPhHpKD2SS/c...2&i=127OEM2

    We are going to obviously need a remote turn on connection. Will the Pac OEM-2 give us that without having to tap into the headunit, or is tapping into the headunit unavoidable? I've read some posts on which connection to make to the headunit for remote turn on...so I've got a pretty good idea of that.

    So beyond mounting screws and the like...what else are we not thinking of? Hints, tips, or tricks that anyone wants to share? Are we even heading in the right direction? Or are we completely way off base? lol :D

    Oh also...here's the link from my previous post about installing the Pioneer speakers:
    http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=2...mp;#entry386417
     
  2. dzoutzidis

    dzoutzidis New Member

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    Ummm... I'm definately a sound newbie but isn't 111W rms to each speaker way too much for those speakers? The recommended range for them is 2-35 rms.... As for your other questions I think I know the answers but I'm not 100% sure so I'll let somebody else field those questions.
     
  3. Experimental

    Experimental New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dzoutzidis @ Feb 6 2007, 11:50 PM) [snapback]386511[/snapback]</div>
    Thanks for responding. The speakers are 35 watts RMS nominal, with 220 watts max. They should be alright, no?
     
  4. nicoss

    nicoss New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Experimental @ Feb 6 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]386451[/snapback]</div>
    Sounds more like an impedance mismatch.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Experimental @ Feb 6 2007, 05:19 PM) [snapback]386451[/snapback]</div>
    The spec for the amp states: "preamp- and speaker-level inputs",
    It should accept signal from the "original" speakers but there might be ground noise issues;
    In addition it is not clear how it matches the impedance of the original amplifier.
    It looks as the PAC OEM-2 is the prefered solution.

    It is not clear from the TS-A1671R specs if it has a built-in crossover network (To split the raw signal to Low-Mid-High frequencies for the woofer, midrange and tweeter); If it has a pair of connectors, it most probably has such a network.

    As far as connecting the new speakers to the amplifier, use the largest gauge wire that you can fit. (Otherwise the bass will sound a bit "flatulent").


    Wish you success :D
     
  5. Experimental

    Experimental New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nicos @ Feb 7 2007, 03:28 AM) [snapback]386601[/snapback]</div>
    What is the impedance on the original speakers?

    The new Pioneer speakers only have two connectors.

    I was thinking 12 gauge wire. Do you think that would be big enough?

    Thanks for the king words Nicos! B)
     
  6. GeoGeek

    GeoGeek Member

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    12 gage wire to three-way 6.5-inchers is overkill....even with the output from the amp.
    16-gage is more than enough.....in fact, you could probably stick with the factory wiring, which is either 16 or 18 gage.

    The new rear speakers should sound dramatically better than the factory ones they replaced...
    maybe not as good as the fronts because the fronts have separate tweeters and are more efficient.
    Makes me think that the rear speakers aren't getting a good seal on the door panel.

    The previous poster was right about the line level converter.....it will do better than running high level
    input all the way to the amp. I used a Scosche SLC-4.....hook it up right at the back of the factory head unit and then run RCA jacks back to the amp.

    The amp will definately wake up the rear speakers....fronts too....

    Good Luck.
     
  7. rice.craig

    rice.craig New Member

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    I just finished doing a complete upgrade of my JBL-sound system. Some lessons learned...

    - In spite of what the Monster cable people would like us to think, there's no need to overkill the speaker wiring with 12g cable. The McIntosh folks published a white paper on speaker wiring including a great table of wire gauge vs run length vs speaker impedance http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm For 4 ohm speakers you probably only need 18-20g wires. A nice surprise in the Prius is that the stock speaker wires look to be 18g. I've upgraded sound systems in other cars and had to completely replace the 22-24g stock wires. It's not a lot of fun having to run wires all the way into the doors :eek:

    - For the bang for your bucks focus your audio system upgrade with the front speakers. These are the speakers that will establish your sound stage. The rear speakers add fill and can add to the richness of the sound, but really aren't the focus of a good sounding system. Use your Pioneers for the front doors and leave the stocks in the rear, or pick up a pair of Pioneer components for the fronts. Infinity Reference components are quite nice. I used CDT Audio Classic components in my car, and am very happy with them.

    - If you can give up the trunk space, a subwoofer makes a HUGE difference in the perceived quality of the sound. I used a 8" CDT sub in a Q-logic sealed box.

    - When installing the speakers, make some spacers out of MDF as described by DocVijay. These help absorb the vibrations that would otherwise be transfered into the door metal and cause distortions. The spacers also ensure the face of the speaker is sealed to the back side of the door face. Otherwise sound sort of bangs inside the door and sounds dreadful. My opinion--stay away from the Scosche adapters. These are light weight plastic and just don't give you a very well sealed system.

    - Your Infinity amp gives you a nice base for an excellent system. It is 2ohm stable and channels 3 and 4 can be bridged. What does this all mean? Well, you can use channels 1 and 2 to drive the front and rear door speakers on each side hooked in parallel (4ohm + 4ohm in parallel = 2ohm). Put an L-PAD (you'll need two Parts-Express.com Part Number 260-260, one for each side of the car) in front of the rear speakers. The Parts-express L-pads each have two 8ohm pads ganged together. Wire these two 8ohm pads together to get a single 4ohm L-pad. The L-pads let you attenuate the volume level of the rears to get the right balance between the front and rears. Install the L-pads in the trunk(?) with your amp, our in the center console for on the fly adjustments. Hook the stock head units front speaker outputs to your amps channels 1 and 2. This drives the doors. Take you headunit's rear speaker outputs to channels 3 and 4 of the amp. The amp's bridged channel 3+4 can drive a sub, and with a 278watt output you can drive just about anything from 8 to 12" sub.

    - Miscellaneous enhancements. I intalled B-quiet Extreme in all the doors as well as a couple of square feet of their accoustic foam against the outer skin of the doors directly behind the speakers. The B-quiet dramatically decreased the amount of road noise, and makes the Prius' doors sound when closed more like those of a Lexus than well... a Prius. The B-quiet also eliminated a bunk of vibrations/distortion at low frequency.

    In my set-up I attribute sound improvements...
    - 40% just replacing stock speakers with better ones (in my case CDT Audio Classic series)
    - 10% adding an amp (Alpine MRP F250) to drive the door speakers. Note the CDT's are pretty efficient so the amp wasn't as big a contributor as one might see with other speakers. An Audiocontrol LC-8 was also added to combine the high and low signals of the JBL amp output.
    - 20% adding a subwoofer (CDT Audio ES 8") in Q-Logic sealed enclosure
    - 20% adding the B-quiet
    - 10% adding a Audiocontrol EQL equalizer to flatten out the JBL systems crazy base and treble bumps.

    Hope this helps!
     
  8. nicoss

    nicoss New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Experimental @ Feb 6 2007, 10:39 PM) [snapback]386605[/snapback]</div>
    Don’t know, but it should be in the 2 to 4 ohm range.

    Then the crossover is built – in; But GeoGeek (post #6) made a valid point in reference to the tweeters. Your speakers have the tweeter and mid range, a bit off axis with the center of the speaker and there is a good chance that they will sound a bit “muddyâ€

    With the short wire runs involved, #16 should do OK; Personally I’d use #14, soft multi-stranded.

    I’ve no experience with car audio installation since I prefer to do my listening in the comfort of my living room with a good <strike>glass</strike> bottle :rolleyes: of single malt;

    Finally a note for Mr. Wizard. I almost agree with you except that in the case of vacuum tube power plants wire size does make a difference.

    Cheers :)
    Nicos
     
  9. Experimental

    Experimental New Member

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    Thanks for all the replies everyone! Lots of great information here!

    Due to work, we had to put the upgrades on hold for a couple of weeks. As soon as we start back up, I'll post. We will take pictures along the way, and maybe I can do a nice write up.

    Thank you all again. I hope everyone is having a great weekend!