Am I a bad person???

I don't relish the incease in price but it seems inevitable. Several years ago it was obvious that fuel prices were going to go up. At that time we switched from a Caddy and large truck to a diesel jetta and prius. Now we pay less than 1/2 of the cost of fuel even at todays prices.

 

I don't think you are a bad person for that. I would like you to think about where that money is going though. Very little of it is going to pay for the degredation (environmental and cultural) it's extraction has done and instead it is filling the coffers of big business and politicians.

So on one hand I would love for oil prices to continue to increase but on the other I would like to see that money being spent on important issues like cleanup and restoration instead of making a rich man richer while the poor are further burdened. It sounds very Robin Hoodish I know but the economics and environment don't lie.

*edit*

I just realized this isn't in FHoP... Grr I'm gonna get in trouble now and I'm on probation. lol

*hides*

 

I have no sympathy for people who buy large and complain about gas prices.

 

I agree about where the profits go, and keep in minde these are record profits, for any company, in any industry. They tell us it is all about supply and demand and they work really hard to direct our attention to the problem being demand, as prius owners we are quick to point to demand being the problem as well. The real problem is on the supply side of the equation, but nobody ever talks about that. Nobody. The real problem is that the shortage is artificially created, and perpetuated by those with interestsin big oil.

Putting my soapbox aside, I personally think it is wrong to smile when gas prices go up, as there is alot less difference between a prius and an SUV than there is between a citizen and an oil corporation. I dont know any flesh and blood person who takes home 18 billion profit a year, yet the corporate oil entitys are doing it.

Suv's and Priuses both fit in the same garages and the same parking places. Granted SUVs and large cars use more fuel, but keep in mind there are plenty of cars smaller than the prius that dont get that great of fuel economy either. The only difference between a hybrid and a normal vehicle is technology, and a good portion of our citizens cant afford the premium we all paid for that technology, especially with $3 a gallon gas. To me, owning a Prius is a privelege, and when I see the price at the pump going up, I dont feel happy, I feel fortunate.

As long as cars operate on fossil fuel, we the citizens are not really to blame for the problem. Big Oil and the auto industry are the ones that really deserve the blame. Even if all cars were as efficient as the Prius, there would still be demand for gasoline, and you better believe there would be even less supply then there is now, after all its dumb for oil companies to refine any more gas than they need to. People do choose what they drive, and no one really needs a Hummer, but the difference in consumption one person makes between driving an SUV or an economy car is but a drop in the lake of the gasoiline we are so dependant on. We cant do anything about gas prices, but we can become aware of what is really going on.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brad34695 @ Nov 12 2007, 11:58 PM) [snapback]538706[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PacMan @ Nov 13 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]538937[/snapback]</div>

I [heart] PacMan.

To the OP, yes, you are a bad person. High Fuel prices not only impact drivers, but food prices, clothes, and many other consumer goods and services (such as fuel surcharges for air travel and FedEx shipments).

It seems you became afflicted with some smug. Can I afford a fancy new hybrid car? No. Can I even afford a new 34mpg Chevy Aveo? No. So, I have the old, V8 powered sedan that I've had for a while now (it was the cheapest, safest car and nicest condition car I could find at the time). I need brakes. Can I afford them? Not really. $3.01/gallon x 23 gallon tank = no money left over for auto maintenence. I don't drive to work. I take the train. I take a bus to get to the train. I walk to the bus to get to the train to get to work. I have eliminated car use as much as I can, but I still need it to get to places, to visit family, and to go to the store to buy those, now, more expensive goods.

And what, exactly, does your Prius run on? Love and Bunny Kisses? Even the almighty hybrids run on fossil fuel, so it's not like you're all that much better off than the average Impala/Camry/Malibu/Accord/Civic/Corolla driver (which are the cars most Americans buy).

So keep on being righteous. It only goes to show how detached you are from reality.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 13 2007, 12:45 PM) [snapback]538985[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Chrome, and very well said. My post was long enough without getting into the inflation of everything else due to the price of oil.

You have hit on the only real solution to the problem of oil dependancy. Reducing consumption doesnt work as the other side will only reduce the supply to compensate. The only thing that can be done is to find alternative means of getting around such as public transportation, riding a bike, moving to urban areas where you can walk to work and the store, or going back to self sufficient rural life. For most people though, the suburbs are here to stay.

Dont be too hard on self righteous people, we are conditioned to feel that way. One day when cars do run off of Love and Bunny Kisses, the rest of us can smile when we hear them complain about a shortage of fuel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brad34695 @ Nov 12 2007, 10:58 PM) [snapback]538706[/snapback]</div>

yes brad you are a bad person, and the reason is because your avatar shows a girl luring in a guy and then kicking him in the balls
however, can you tell me where i can get it for my girlfriend to use as her avatar on bitchs.com :lol:

 

i dont feel bad at all about the rise in gas... gotta justify the purchase of my Zenn hehehe...

ya, gotta update my sig. data was calculated with gas at $3.049.... but it just went to 3.089 this morning...

 

In economic terms, the closer gas prices are to the full costs, the better. I don't want to pay more for everything, and I don't wish that on everyone else - especially those least able to afford it - and I definitely don't think the profits belong in the hands of the oil barons. But the fact is oil is very expensive, and the exclusion of externalities from the pricing makes it artificially cheap. If gas doesn't get more expensive, we'll never be forced into developing the alternatives that will benefit us all in the long run.

 

I have to admit, I smile when I go to the gas station and spend about $20 filling up when the guy next to me just spent $70.

However, as someone else pointed out in a mean sort of way in a previous post, the high price of oil is causing just about everything else (except real estate) to go up in price. It's pretty convenient that the price of food is left out when calculating whether there is inflation or not. I go out to eat frequently, and have noticed increases in prices just about everywhere over the last 6 months to a year.

I heard an "expert" speculating that the price of oil will go over $180 barrel in the near future. (It's just below $100 right now.) Think of what that will mean to the price of getting all those goods that we like to consume to the stores.

Interestingly, if you own stock in a railroad, you should probably be happy that prices are going up. Every time the price of oil goes up, it makes shippng goods via train much more cost effective. It's one of the reasons why Warren Buffett went out and bought stodgy old railroads.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 13 2007, 01:45 PM) [snapback]538985[/snapback]</div>

No one forced you to buy a V8 sedan. You probably just thought it was cooler than a 10 yo Corolla, despite the Corolla being cheaper to own/maintain/drive/insure and probably safer to boot. Now you can't afford to drive it, and probably can't find anyone to dump it on. Sure that sucks, but is no ones fault but your own. If you are pissed at anyone it ought to be all the other gas guzzlers out there driving up the cost of gas.

Good for you for taking the bus/train. See what happens when gas prices go up, people start doing the right thing Unfortunately that seems to be the only way to make most people in this country do the right thing.

Sorry, but thats just nonsense. According to this EPA Report:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/fetrends/420r07008.pdf
2005-2007 Light Truck (pickup/van/SUV) sales have hovered right around 50% of all light duty vehicle sales.

-2007 Light Truck (van/suv) average 17.7mpg (up from 16.7 in 2004)
-2007 Car Average 23.4mpg (up from 23.1 in 2004)
-2007 Overall Average 20.2mpg

On this forum you will find that most Prius drivers are average between 40 and 60mpg. So in general Prius drivers are using 2-3 times less gas than the cars that "most Americans buy." That means 2-3 times less money they're putting into oil company and foreign terrorists coffers, and 2-3 times less CO2 going into the air. If someone can achieve similar results in any other car, thats great! But lets not pretend that most Americans are already doing this.

I can go about 500 miles on $30 worth of gas. The average car goes about 200.

But the average American can. According to the FTC report here:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut11.shtm
The average price of a new car this year is $28,400. According to Edmunds the starting price for a 2008 Prius is $20,950.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(PacMan @ Nov 13 2007, 01:45 PM) [snapback]538985[/snapback]</div>

Except that when you add all of those drops together, light duty vehicles make up 40% of our our total oil usage (according to the EPA report above). If all light duty vehicles saw their fuel economy double by the application of hybrid or other technologies, we would trim ~20% off our total oil consumption. Coincidentally, 20% is about exactly how much of our oil we buy from the Middle East.

Rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Nov 13 2007, 06:32 PM) [snapback]539162[/snapback]</div>

Rob,

For the preservation of our planet and future generations, decreasing demand is of the most vital importance, however, even if all the vehicles were replaced with hybrids, and we were able to trim 20%, all it would mean is that the oil comanies could close a few more refineries or find any number of reasons to make up the demand by selling to china or india, or to quit pumping due to wars or natural disasters.

Corporations have only one agenda which is to make profit. The fact these Oil companies are making record profits clearly shows gasoline prices are artificially inflated. In a real market situation things would even out, but the oil corporations seem to be reaping all the benifits. The worst part is that this is all being done right in front of our faces, we are all being manipulated and told that the problem is demand and it can be solved by each individual reducing their consumption. Another manipulation of the truth is when the oil company CEO likes to tell the American public all about how these record profits are being reinvested in new infrastructure for getting us more oil. What the leave out is the reason for this. It's not to increase supply and lower prices, they are simply setting themselves up to be able to get more oil to sell you in the future when their current wells run dry.

Oil is a finite resource and the people who control the supply of it will continue to ensure that they only put enough of it on the market to provide enough to keep us driving our cars but still ensure they can make maximum profits from each gallon of gas sold. This not only makes for record profits, but it also keeps them in business longer because people like us actually are doing some things to reduce our consumption. The know that they will be able to continue raising prices because they keep going higher then back off to make you feel like you are getting some relief. I still remember when gas was under a dollar and it wasnt that long ago, but 2.50 feels normal now.

The other flaw in this scenario is that the burden again falls on the citizens, not the corporations to replace all the cars with hybrids. Not for nothing, but most americans are still making payments on their non hybrid cars, and I am pretty sure they dont want to just donate those payments in the name of redusing consumption.

The Government isnt going to help us, the Oil Companies are going to help us, and the Auto Makers are going to help us because they all benifit from this arrangement of corporations which are legal entities like you and I but they have no soul, and no motive other than profit. Even my beloved Prius barely gets a few miles per gallon more than my 1993 geo metro used to get (43 mpg). With 15 years of development time and all the technology in a hybrid, not to mention alot of additonal cost, how come they can only squeeze another 5 to 10 mpg out of a Prius of all cars? Why does the modern day equal of the metro being the chevy aveo or suzuki Reno get 10 MPG less??

ITS BECAUSE THE POINT OF A PRIUS IS ABOUT REDUCING EMISSIONS AND MINIMIZING DAMAGE TO OUR PLANET.

It's not about saving gas. If you want to be proud of your Prius, be proud of it's ecological footprint, or it's advanced engineering and technology, not about the fact that the Human being in the SUV at the next pump is getting raped harder than you are by soul sucking corporations. That's just sadistic. We are all on this planet together, and we better start waking each other up to what is really going on, or there's not going to be much of a planet left for our kids.

 

taking pleasure in other people's pain... crappy.
taking away the freedom to make stupid decisions... worse.
consequences are consequences, but i'm well past the point where i feel *good* about anyone getting bent over by a gas pump. i can hope it pushes people toward considering other options but let's face it- we're all free to be idiots.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chrome @ Nov 13 2007, 11:45 AM) [snapback]538985[/snapback]</div>

I have trouble listening to this. Yes, of course expensive gasoline will raise the cost of everything. But you know what? So does paying the true cost of ANYTHING. We are crapping in our own nest. We're killing people, increasing the cost of health insurance, and DRASTICALLY lowering our national security... by driving gasoline cars. We don't yet pay anywhere near the true cost of our gasoline use. What you are asking for is basically something for nothing. We're all paying the costs associated with gasoline - we just are not paying it at the pump - where that cost belongs.

Would you drive your V8 (alone) to work if gas were 50c/gallon? If the answer is yes, then that is part of the problem that expensive gasoline fixes. You may consider me an elitist. And I have some disposable income... and you know what I do by choice? I ride a bike. I ride a bike not because it saves me money (not if you saw the cost of these things!), I ride a bike because there's rarely a compelling reason to sit on my nice person and drive a car. I currently commute 46 miles RT.

Yes, expensive gasoline hurts. We deal with the mild pain now, or we deal with it after far more damage has been done - and the pain is inescapable. There is a finite amount of oil left. We have passed the world-wide production peak. After it gets expensive - the next move will be going to war for it. How much hurt are you willing to endure?

My Prius runs on gasoline, which absolutely sucks. My EV, on the other hand, runs on the rose petals and the laughter of children.

This is the most difficult one yet. The reality here is that cheap gas inspires us to import more of it, and use it like it is an endless supply that doesn't harm anything. Expensive gas inspires us to fine alternatives. To use less, import less, and pollute less. We all have different personal realities. But we all have to deal with the same damaging realities of oil addiction.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Nov 13 2007, 11:01 PM) [snapback]539288[/snapback]</div>

I don't wish anybody to be free to idiotically take precious things away from me and my family. Like clean air. Clean water. National security and a healthy economy. Feel free to damage yourself. But you should NOT be so free to damage me.

Ooof. That box gets harder to get off of as I age.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Nov 13 2007, 11:19 PM) [snapback]539321[/snapback]</div>

That is the deal sealer for me. By that I mean once I state the above as my position I either make a friend or an enemy. Some people just have a real hard time understanding why they cannot do whatever the hell they want to. This comes up all the time with property rights and simple things like smoking. Rarely do people realize just how connected everything in this world really is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brad34695 @ Nov 12 2007, 08:58 PM) [snapback]538706[/snapback]</div>

In many ways yes, of course. If we didn't "need" it, there's no way it could cost this much. And the beauty of that is... if we didn't "need" it, we'd have other options. Where we're really to blame is in waiting so damn long to start thinking about those options. We can't possible consider alternatives when gas is only $1.50, can we? No... we have to wait until the prices start to run away.

And for this reason, we should blame cheap fuel on our misery. If it were more expensive long ago, we'd have alternatives today! That's it! Let's blame the past low price of fuel for the current high prices - so we don't look so bad.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Nov 14 2007, 12:29 AM) [snapback]539328[/snapback]</div>

Friend!

I too have a hard time hearing that people have a "right" to drive any type of vehilce they want. The idea is that it doesn't affect me, so why should I care? "Because they can afford to" drive a fuel-hungry car is the reason very often given. If millions of Americans can afford to drive a full-size SUV - by themselves - as a commute vehicle, then gasoline is way the hell too cheap.

If I toss dog poo in my neighbor's back yard, I can get in trouble. Buy my neighbor can fire up his Hummer and toss his Hummer Poo in my face... and that's his "right."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Nov 13 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]539330[/snapback]</div>

Same goes for the landowner how wants to store toxic substances on his acreage which subseqently works it's way into our aquifers and drinking water. Or my friend who complains about the price of towels or beer and so shops at a store known for it's unfair treatment of employees yet he recently installed a $6,000 supercharger on his 2yr old SS Camaro. There is also the man who buys the cheapest diamond for his new love without a thought to where it comes from. Bah, you know we see to eye on this subject so I'm preachin' to the choir my friend.

*edit*

Fortunately I'm aware of my shortcomings as well and I catch myself or others catch me and call me on hypocritical behavior and I make sure to change.