Am I reading Build Back Better correctly?

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by Marine Ray, Nov 20, 2021.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    What agency will track and enforce that? Most likely it would be the IRS, who is already underfunded to the point that they can't enforce the current tax code completely. Past credit systems meant them tracking whether someone kept the car for three years. Do you still own the car that gave you a credit in the previous 2 years wasn't question on tax forms back then. That extra work burden for IRS was probably the reason why it was dropped.

    Virtually every potential driver in a household can file taxes and qualify for the credit. Households that can afford to get more new cars than drivers in one year are in the group that really don't need such a high tax credit.

    For those unfortunate ones that lose a new car in the first calendar year of purchase should have insurance on the car, and there are short term car options for them until the new year.
    This bill has that. Isn't an actual rebate though. The buyer can transfer their credit to the dealer, and be applied to the car as a down payment. it goes into effect a year after the credit to allow time in setting up the system for it.
     
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  2. MTN

    MTN Active Member

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    Ugh - WTH

    Which bill text actually got passed?
    If we look at:
    Text - H.R.5376 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Build Back Better Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
    When defining the "new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle" ...
    A Prius Prime will still qualify (in 2022 and 2023) b/c the battery is greater than 7 kwh

    ``(i) has a capacity of--
    ``(I) in the case of a vehicle
    placed in service in 2022 or 2023, not
    less than 7 kilowatt hours, and

    ``(II) in the case of a vehicle
    placed in service after 2023, not less
    than 10 kilowatt hours, and ...


    So you can get $4k for a Prime still. Until the bill text changes again. Also the 2.5 gallon limit is not the in text in my link. Furthermore the 2.5 gallon limit was not part of what defined an EV, so a Prime wouldn't be disqualified, it was part of the determining dollar amount of the credit, so a Prime would not have received the $3500 portion of the calculation - again, moot b/c the text is not in the bill that passed.

    @Trollbait I have to assume that the text in the link on congress.com is the most current text of the bill that passed the house. I don't trust pdfs that could be previous versions.

    It will be interesting to see how/if the Senate marks it up and how (relating to EV/PHEV credits).

    For 2022 vs 2021, if the bill passes with this text, a
    Prius Prime will get $4000 vs $4502; $502 or 11% less
    Rav4 Prime will get $4000 vs $7500; $3500 or 47% less
    Ford Escape PHEV will get $8500 vs $6843 $1657 or 24% MORE
     
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  3. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    If you are buying before the legislation is passed and before January 1

    I would strongly suspect that NOTHING CHANGES until next year and legislation is past Biden

    One of the relatively well laid out sites talking about BBB still says retroactive to March
    Guarantee it will never happen but I like that more than what is being proposed
    A $23,000 brand new untitled 2020 bolt - $11,500 credit sounds terrific

    Given things aren’t worked out by the senate I expect rather large changes unless folks get motivated to just get it done
     
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  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That fits with a table/tweet posted in other threads on the subject.
    But...
    The bill text at your link is the original bill. It doesn't match the Senate version. So the two have to be reconciled.
    Click the all actions link there, and you can find changes made to the bill, including the version I posted.
     
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  5. MTN

    MTN Active Member

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    Ah, okay - found that version and it has the 10 kwh battery limit, which would exclude the Prius (and Ioniq/Niro PHEVs).

    I just hope they sort this out before 12/31 to make it a clean 2022 implementation. The EV credits play a big role in our consideration of PHEV purchases currently.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If this passes, I can go new Bolt instead used.
     
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  7. dtsexpert

    dtsexpert Member

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    count me in as well, will sell ly 2021 Prime to fund for the Bolt.
     
  8. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    It’s price will inflate though
     
  9. MikeDee

    MikeDee Senior Member

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    Not that I think this bill will pass, but if it does I wonder how it will shape the Gen 5 Prime?


    iPhone ? Pro
     
  10. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    A version of the bill will pass eventually but it may not be recognizable, funny part is there is more behind the scenes bipartisan drive than you might expect despite the rage from the guys born yesterday falling off turnip trucks.

    Given Toyotas drive to use low density in house battery tech a 10kwhr battery will not fit into the current Prime/liftback chassis.

    On the other hand the former V could fit 10kwhr

    My guess is Toyota will likely drop the Prius Prime as they “chose incorrectly “ as to what platform to update and build upon.

    instead using large inefficient vehicles to be Prime, which is the unfortunate affect of legal mumbo jumbo like this

    From what I can tell Solid state is still 5+ years away so that won’t happen either.

    Even more unfortunate as I have zero interest in a RAV4 or H Prime but a Gen v Prius Prime would be interesting, but given lack of financial backing for efficient small battery plug ins Toyota is likely waiting in the wings to diverge their foreign offerings from the US.

    Might also explain why it feels like its taking millions of years for Toyota the green vehicle pioneer to bring out the next Gen Prius.

    Only icing on the cake is when fuel prices go up to what they once were, Consumer tastes will instantly swing away from all the larger vehicles back to cars. Hopefully at that point Toyota still makes the Prius to a once again ready made market
     
    #30 Rmay635703, Nov 23, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  11. JMalmsteen

    JMalmsteen I love my Prius!

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    How much are current EV credits for the Prime?

    The Tesla forum has a 100+ page thread on this if anyone wants to follow a super active discussion. I had a Model Y Performance on hold for March 1, 2022 (to get the credit) and Tesla just gave me a vin and told me to pick up the car (I'm not). I'm going to reorder and wait to get the credit. They are desperate for Q4 numbers.

    Here's the link, assuming this is permitted here
    https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-ev-tax-credits-coming-back.220348/
     
    #31 JMalmsteen, Nov 27, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Currently max $4502 for PP on non-refundable tax credit. This will hold unless the new low retroactively change the credit for the car purchased in the tax year 2021. I purchased my 2021 PP this year, so I expect to receive $4502 next year when I file the 2021 income tax.
     
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  13. JMalmsteen

    JMalmsteen I love my Prius!

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    Thanks. We bought ours in 2017. I don't recall how much the credit was at the time. We are at 210k miles, so at some point, we will need another Prime. I'm hoping Toyota still makes the Prime.
     
  14. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    It has not changed since 2017. Surprisingly, the previous administration did not alter it.
     
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  15. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Once law Bipartisan agreements (even those that aren’t) are hard to overturn especially when they have momentum and are popular.

    Similar to an R supermajority not repealing and replacing given the lost insurance donation dollars and populist backlash they would get.
     
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  16. Colorado Boo

    Colorado Boo Member

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    It's DOA in the Senate...Senator Manchin just shot down Build Back Broke...he said it didn't meet his 3 criteria...not paid for, not bipartisan, and doesn't solve a problem.

    Good for him...I like DINOs better than RINOs!

    If we think inflation is high now, passing this pork-bill will skyrocket inflation! (What happens when you have to print more money based on nothing....something many in politics fail to comprehend.)
     
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Worried about inflation, repeal the tax reform from the last administration. It costs more than the BBB.
     
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  18. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Manonions is just a hack and wants to write the legislation by himself power+pandering +making stories = useless legislator

    As towards republicans no republican in the country will publicly support any Biden initiatives even if they write it. Funny part is not publicly a large number of republicans governors + house support BBB because they want to actually accomplish something.

    Locally Tony (D) passed legislation written by the majority (R) legislature
    Said legislators are complaining about the effects of said law even though Tony had no input.
     
    #38 Rmay635703, Nov 29, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2021
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  19. RobertZ

    RobertZ Member

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    I just sold my 2017 Prius Prime for almost $7000 profit.
    Plus the $7500 federal rebate for full EV cars, I am looking at $14,500 break.
    I am looking at Mach-e (BTW: Great fun car, very very quiet and great performance) which only gets $7500.
    I am good with that.
    Since this is a car for wife it has to be Mach-e and not F150-lightning (I would have loved that one with additional federal rebate).
    I would like to get new Mach-e by end of the year (They are very hard to find) so I can file for the rebate next spring.

    Tesla was ruled out because more expensive AND no federal rebate.
    There are more EVs are coming next year (Nissan Aria, Toyota BZ4x, Audi, BMW, MB etc.) but I can't wait a whole year.
     
    #39 RobertZ, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
  20. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    How much will that cost?
    Were gonna get what we all desire! quote me "2016"
    edit: opps BBB - not the other BBB :notworthy: I just posted about the other day.
     
    #40 vvillovv, Dec 1, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2021
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