America Hates Electric Cars

At least the author linked to a rebuttal. I don't have time to write a rebuttal or participate, but IMHO, the author's an idiot. There are plenty of communities and commutes were the limited range of EVs like the Leaf are fine.

The guy at My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - 15,000 miles later..... passed 15K miles. My Nissan Leaf Forum • View topic - Report from 10K passed 10K miles in July 2011. The 1st delivery in the US was in mid December 2010.

His comparisons of a Fiesta to a Prius are hilarous... what's the combined EPA mileage of the Fiesta? 33 mpg. Prius? 50 mpg. 52% better combined mileage isn't real close in my book.

He doesn't bother upon bringing up the tax credits which can bring the cost of EVs and PHEVs down.

He doesn't bother touching upon our dependence to foreign oil, about 50% of which we import, much of which resides in unstable regions or the world or where the people don't like us much along w/military interventions needed to secure its supply. Maybe he doesn't realize that we send almost $1 billion/day to foreign countries for oil. He doesn't bother touching upon non-fossil fuel based methods of generating electricity, some of which are totally non-polluting.

 

I do not hate electric cars, I just fail to have a lifestyle that allows me to live with one.



That is no different than I don't hate sedans, I just carry too much to drive one.

 

Here is the deal with me an electric cars... I would truly love to own and electric car, but in my situation it would not work because to get to and from work is about 150 miles and an electric car wouldnt cut it. That is the main reason that i would want either a Prius Plug-in or a Prius c once it comes out because they do get such great gas mileage. I am the only one in my family who is open to the ides of hybrids or electric cars. Yet they all complain about buying gas, and so I bring up hybrids and they yell at me and give me reasons why I am "wrong" yet their reasons are based off of ignorance.

 

That was pretty much a mindless rant, rather than a person with anything interesting to say. Let me distill it:

"Electric cars won't work as the sole transport for people who routinely drive more than the range of the electric car. And they cost a lot."

I agree with the first statement. The second statement isn't really true, at least not for the Leaf.

The rest of it was just muddled. Can anybody explain the reason or logic of the "hybrids are worse" paragraph? The writing was so rambling I literally could not figure out worse than what.

The comparison of Fiesta and Prius was typical propaganda, and just not very smart.

Fueleconomy.gov gives the following for 2011 model year:
Fiesta: 32 mpg, 97 cu ft interior volume
Prius: 50 mpg, 116 cu ft interior volume.

That makes the Prius about 87% more efficient than the Fiesta (in terms of cubic-foot-miles per gallon).

Worse, it costs about as much, lifetime, to own either car. The EPA lists the annual fuel cost of the Fiesta at $550 more than the Prius (at about $2.50/gallon). Ten years with no gas price increases, that's $5,500. MSRP range is listed as $13K to $17K for the Fiesta versus $22K for the Prius. If you have to buy near the $17K level to get options comparable to the Prius, then the Prius is actually the cheaper car to own, lifetime, despite being larger.

So the upshot of Fiesta versus Prius is: If you want to buy a smaller car, pay more for it (lifetime) and burn more gasoline, then get the Fiesta. That doesn't strike me as a great way to knock the Prius, except if the article is aimed at an audience that isn't going to bother to figure that out.

But as I said, I didn't quite understand the point of that paragraph.

On the idea that electric cars are expensive, I don't think you can make that argument for the Leaf (as long as you count the tax credit as somebody else's problem). Volt, yes, Leaf, no. The Leaf is already cost-competitive with the Prius on a lifetime cost-of-ownership basis.

I calculate maybe $3000 in fuel savings for Leaf versus a Prius (that's 150,000 miles at $.02/mile fuel savings). Clearly that depends on your electricity rates.

So, comparing Leaf to Prius at $2.50/gallon gasoline, lifetime cost-of-ownership looks like: MSRP of $33K, less $7.5K tax credit, less $3K fuel cost savings, = $22.5K. Or, roughly the same as a Prius ($22K). Also, roughly the same interior volume (113 cu ft for the Leaf).

I always like to point out how leveraged that is. At $5/gallon for gas, if electric rates remained unchanged, the fuel savings would be $10K, and the Leaf would be much cheaper to own, lifetime, than the Prius.

So, almost the same interior volume as the Prius, roughly comparable cost of ownership now, with substantial insurance against fuel price spikes. That's not too bad. (But is brought to you courtesy of your tax dollars.)

There has been a spate of articles like this lately. Lots of attitude, not much in the way of accurate numbers. I think it goes hand-in-hand with the "new dawn of American energy independence" meme, which has also been getting a lot of play. And is also not correct on the facts.

Anyway, I didn't see much here of merit. If you need to drive long distances, EVs aren't right for you. Volt is an expensive car no matter how you slice it. Leaf, not so. And the cost comparison is quite leveraged -- $5/gallon gas shifts the entire equation.

 

It's the same old argument.

If America produced and Americans bought more smaller, economical cars then you wouldn't have to import fuel from dodgy Countries that hate you and your way of life.

You want to poke your finger in the eye of Iran or Venezuela then cut your fuel economy by 50% (unless you already have). If you all did it then job sorted, but most people don't see it or want to. Happy to drive in their gas guzzler complainging about the cost of fuel, complaining about soldiers lives lost in Iraq, complaining about fracking and pollution, complaining about everything other than actually doing something to solve the situation, which is easy - drive a more economical car.

 

Very true! Ignorance and a unwillingness to change, investigate and get the facts. :cheer2:

 

The Leaf only goes 75 miles?That does kind of suck.
Biggest drawback on EVs is the cost of replacement batteries.
IMO natural gas cars should be the norm.
EPA should regulate fracking though.

 

After reading it, I am convinced the author hates electric cars. However, he did not convinced me that America hates electric cars.

 

People hate what they don't understand or can't explain. Had a guy tell me an electric car won't run when it gets cold. I said yep water freezes at 32 degrees and electricity stops/freezes at 20 degrees. His reply i know ,that is why you should not have an electric car in cold parts of the country. Geeze like the comedian says you can't fix stupid and here is your sign.

 

As to EVs at this time, as I see it, most Americans don't have
(pick two) the time, the desire, or the ability to consider the
larger picture of the necessary conditions under which EVs can
--perhaps even will, become not just accepted but embraced.

When the first auto-mobiles, horseless carriages, appeared on
the roads, woebegone dirt and mud tracks meandering across
the countryside, it was the general consensus that the idea would
never work. The obstacles were just too big:

* they were dirty and smelly,
* they were mechanically unreliable,
* they were hard to start -- hand crank,
* fuel availability was limited only to urban areas,
* where roads existed, they were mostly intended for travel at a
horse's walking speed,
* the vehicles themselves were not that robust, etc, etc.

The ultimate success of the automobile did not happen overnight.
It took at least four decades of concerted -- although not necessarily
coordinated -- effort by individuals (visionaries inventors, tinkerers),
corporations (car builders, parts makers, fuel suppliers and
distributors, etc.) and government (safety and equipment standards,
state and national road building programs, etc.) and the necessary
systemic rationalization/nationalization required to successfully
prosecute two World Wars for the automobile to go from a rich man's
toy to an everyman's necessity.

Today, the EV is essentially at the same point in its evolution, constant
reinvention and improvement as the automobile was in 1911. It is
easily criticized for its limitations. IMHO, the issue of it ultimate
success has much to do with goals that are much bigger than the
vehicle itself, and the question of individual, corporate and government
resolve to set and reach those goals.

I would suggest that meaningful answers to questions as to whether
EVs are viable are at least 10, and perhaps more like 20, years in the
future.

But for there to be any success, large or small, you have to start...
and for better or worse, so we have... :rockon:

 

Ah, just a slimey article written by a N'er-do-well trying to get a rise out of people.

Regarding the Leaf - I'm not too happy to see the price non-chalantly jacked from $32 something to $35k now. Anyone else notice that? You can buy a Versa hatchback for about $20k less. How are you going to 'make up' about $20k cost for Leaf, and deal with battery repair / replacement in 8 years?

Not to bash Leaf too much, but you really have to want to use no gasoline. Nothing wrong with spending a lot of money on something you believe in.

One has to take some baby steps first, and that's where anything that plugs in is at now.

btw, well spoken and thoughful, Rokeby.

 

Rather than focus on battery cost, it's interesting that many don't want to focus on gasoling issues (like 911-blowback, pollution, etc). Ad to natural gas, if folks grasped the cost of cleaning up fracking, and weighed those costs (monitary and eco damage), suddenly 'clean' natural gas is not so clean. As to the 75 mile issue? My worktime trive (up and back) is 39 miles. That's pretty much spot on average. And since 80%-90% of commuters do less than a 50 mile round trip - it baffles me why EV's don't fill the bill for more ... at least as a 2nd car. It's too bad the focus of 'issues' can't be re-focused onto more important issues. At least not until the energy climate issues get a lot tougher.

.

 

Cycledrum, I can't say offhand why I'm defending electric cars, as I think PHEV is the best option. But let me do the numbers on Leaf and Versa.

The Leaf battery guarantee is 100,000 miles or 8 years, at least according to Wikipedia. In practice, if the Prius is any guide, that means they expect few failures prior to that point. So I think it's plausible to think the typical Leaf user is still going to have usable range at 150% of guaranteed battery life. So let me generously assume the typical Leaf is still usable at 150K miles, acknowledging that there is risk there.

Go to fueleconomy.gov and compare the 2012 Leaf and Versa, in terms of cost to purchase and fuel 10 years at 15K miles per year.

Leaf: $35K purchase less $7.5K tax rebate + 10*($612) = $33,620.
Versa (top end) $18K + 10*(1650) = $34,500.

Definitely in the same ballpark if the batteries last to 150% of warranteed range.

At $5/gallon, the Versa cost rises to $43,000.

At $6.60/gallon (double current price) the Versa cost rises to $51,000.

On a lifetime cost-of-ownership basis, assuming both cars last 150K miles, the Leaf isn't hugely more expensive than the Versa. With the Leaf, you take a risk that the batteries really are going to last those extra 50,000 miles. And it has limited range, and so on. But with the tax rebate it's pretty close to break-even with the Versa now.

But block the Straits of Hormuz, the Leaf is going to look pretty cheap. So it's got some protection against upside risk on gas prices. So dollars and cents, it's more of a tradeoff of risks -- will the batteries fail soon after they are out of warranty, or will gas prices spike.

I wouldn't harp on this but it's the exact same sort of calculation that convinced me to buy a Prius in the first place. At the time (2005), once you factored in the lifetime fuel cost, it was by far the cheapest new car being offered that I could fit into comfortably. Despite relatively high purchase price. Have to put up-front cost and fuel cost on the same page.

 

Hmm...

To try to divorce myself from my instinctual reaction to the headline of the article and my instinct to simply attack?

It probably is fair to say that in general America Hates Electric Cars...or maybe a little fairer to say they aren't ready for, or doesn't really want Electric Cars...

BUT...I get so tired of attacks against Hybrids, Alternative Fuel or Full Electrics being based on the "fact" that the solution isn't perfect. Yes. much of the criticism levied against widespread useage and adoption of Electrics at this point in history is probably valid. So What?

We make no advancement, unless we strive to advance. I don't really care that anyone can outline a strong arguement as to why Electrics aren't viable or convienent, or ready yet to supplant the common ICE.

IMO that really isn't the point. Things change whether we realize it or not. Sometimes rapidly, but most often slower than we think.

And it's not JUST the product that is available, it's the attitude about the product and how it is used. If we don't strive to embrace alternatives? Electrics, Hybrids and alternative fuels? Then no change will happen.

Look at how far we have come. I recently watched an old movie from 1967. They had a automobile in it, that was a convertible 4 seater that appeared to be larger than my living room. It was huge. With a trunk that I almost believe I could fit...my Honda Fit into....

Well? Things have changed. Attitudes about what a vehicle is, or should be, have changed.

Are Electrics the perfect answer? Are Hybrids? Are Diesels? No, No, and No. But even outlining why they aren't the answer today? Doesn't mean we really need headlines declaring a justified hatred towards either todays reality or tomorrows promise.

To those willing and able to be early adopters? They may not be the perfect answer either, BUT they are the answer that the owners are willing to accept. Early adopters are those that plant the seeds of the change of attitude.

Evolution in product and attitude is obviously a process. You can either sit back and "Hate" the idea, and belittle the current reality OR you can strive to be ahead of the curve. I don't couch my evaluation of Alternatives in automobile technology in terms such as Hate...or Love...and I suspect nobody really does...I think a more accurate headline would be America Hates The Idea of Moving Beyond Gasoline Dependent Automotive Choices...It's ultimately just as depressing a reality but it allows for the idea that alternatives do not only exist, but should exist and be encouraged not attacked.

 

hill, somehow the case needs to get out about 911, military costs, climate, etc, etc....

Trouble is, average Joe and Jane sees ... oooh 18k Versa hatchback, gas up, go anywhere, wheeeeeeeeeeee! , $35k Leaf, 75 miles, turtle mode, ooooooooooops

Personally, I can't deal too much with the conundrum of climate vs. what we're doing. Too stressful. I look at EPA, detailed climate studies like in South Florida, then look at typical cars in newspaper and TV ads, industrialization. What a dichotomy. Enough to drive one nuts.

do see Rokeby's post

 

I would say range, long charge time and lack of infrastructure

 

Chogan, then there's the unknown costs of battery repair / replacement which are the billy club of naysayers.

So many people see purchases in terms of immeidate financial gain. How much will it cost me, how much can I save, now. They think people are stupid for buying an electric car or even a hybrid. So, it takes strong individuals to stand up for and do what they believe in.

I agree the best way to think about advanced technology vehicles is in long terms. Change will be slow and gradual. Much as we'd like it all to change tomorrow and have most people driving solar charged electric cars or what have you, change will seem slow.

For now, I like going to the auto show and driving the Leaf around the track. I'd love to have one. It's the car that excites me more than any other car on the road. But, I'm not willing to pay for one

 

It's actually 73 per the EPA but can be longer depending on how you drive. 100 miles is really pushing it. There was http://priuschat.com/forums/nissan-...queezes-132-miles-out-leaf-single-charge.html, but that's an atypical case.

For many people, having that sort of range will work for their daily commute. My previous commute was ~24 miles one way. The Leaf would totally work for me. If they have workplace charging, they could live even further away from work.

The battery is warranted for that long but there is NO capacity warranty.

I can't speak to the accuracy of the Leaf Wikipedia entry (esp. given how messed up other entries sometimes become), but Nissan Leaf Wiki - MyNissanLeaf usually has good and accurate info.