An electric SUV? That's shocking, Phoenix Motorcars SUV

Nice car! I think I'll opt for the pickup, though. Honestly, if these vehicles roll into production at the same time the Toyota work vehicles get an HSD option, there could be some heated competition between the two.

 

Somebody came to work with the Phoenix pickup (not an employee, but a supplier), so we looked it over. There's next to nothing under the hood. If I had it I would put a squirrel cage in there a toy squirrel,

 

They've got a truck and an SUV in the works.

When are they going to have a regular old car?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jun 10 2007, 09:09 PM) [snapback]459479[/snapback]</div>

As soon as they can find a supplier that will offer up a glider that fits everything.

Phoenix has hitched their wagon to a fantastic battery. The problem is that they're still depending on $200k of carbon credits in order to sell these cars at around $50k. If those credits don't happen, then neither do these vehicles.

And if an electric SUV floats your boat - we had them in 1996. I'm still driving one today.

 

$250K!! That's fuel cell costs, for all intents and purposes. So where does that cost come from? More specifically, how much of it is the result of the battery technology? Obviously, some amount of that cost is due to low production volumes, but there's just no way this company can survive if they need 80% of the cost subsidized. Affordable EVs won't happen until a major auto mfg (or perhaps a medium one that isn't controlled by a large one) commits to it. That won't happen until governments (ie the people) demand them or markets make it favorable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 11 2007, 08:53 AM) [snapback]459516[/snapback]</div>

I paid just under $17,000 (before tax) for my EV. That's with a 45-mile range. Essentially the same EV is available for around $10,000 with a 15-mile range, and that are versions in between. Ain't that affordable? No major auto company involved, and that's sad. I wish Honda would come out with a freeway-capable EV. I really like Honda. My Xebra is much more fun than my Prius ever was, though the Prius is bigger and goes faster and farther.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 11 2007, 08:53 AM) [snapback]459516[/snapback]</div>

Nah. That's only 1/4 of a FCV... plus the fuel for any EV is so cheap as to be considered free. Not to mention that you can get the electricity from anywhere. Still lots of advantages of EVs even at this price!

The lion's share is the battery that is not in large production and has a whole bunch of R&D to pay off!

Give Tesla a chance.

$92,000 today
$50,000 two years after that delivery
$30,000 in five years

It is happening. It just isn't happening fast enough, nor at a scale that'll make a significant difference in our problems.

 

A Xebra isn't a car. There's no way in hell I'm putting 2 small kids in an electric 3 wheeler that can't do the speed limit on divided highways. The Xebra works for you and that's great, but it's not a car so let's not pretend that it is. I agree that it's sad that none of the auto mfgs are eager to get into this game. However, it seems unlikely to me that anyone else can pull it off without charging very high prices.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 11 2007, 01:32 PM) [snapback]459668[/snapback]</div>

For all intents and purposes it is... $250K for an SUV is absolutely ridiculous... I agree that EVs have far more potential and FCVs, no arguments there.

As far as Tesla is concerned.... we'll see. I hope that they do well, but so far there's no much to evaluate. Those numbers are based on what? Do they have a date for the roadster yet?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 11 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]459669[/snapback]</div>

Of course we are all waiting. The numbers are based on when the Roadster is released. The advantage that Tesla has over, say, Phoenix, is that their business plan completely ignores any carbon credits that may come down the line. Tesla actually HAS a viable business plan. They also have real live Alpha and Beta cars on the road being tested and crashed. They are currently being held up simply with politics/technicalities. Uh... a bit of an awkward situation since I shouldn't really comment in detail any further. They have a real car that is ready to go. They have hundreds of pre-paid orders. They are simply awaiting the green flag from the feds.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 11 2007, 03:39 PM) [snapback]459769[/snapback]</div>

I am more worry about Tesla. They take your money, then you wait 1 yr late, and still no car. And what is worse, they do not want you to test drive this car, only allowing you to "sit" while they drive the prototype?

I hope they get to sell it, but I want my money in the bank (that is FDIC insured) than trust Tesla in their bank account right now with over 1 yr of run around.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Jun 11 2007, 05:20 PM) [snapback]459820[/snapback]</div>

You expect them to let you drive a prototype car, of which they have maybe six, and hundreds of pre-paid orders? The plan is to invite all "members" (people who have paid the deposit) to test-drive a Roadster (hopefully on a track, if they can make the necessary arrangements) as soon as the Founders Series cars are produced.

I feel as you do: I decided not to give them my money, for all the reasons you have stated. However, I do not think they are being unreasonable or dishonest. This is the only way they could get a start-up off the ground. People who are willing to trust them early with a 50% refundable deposit will be the first to get Roadsters. Those of us who are not willing to take the risk will have to wait longer for the opportunity.

I think Tesla is doing it right, and I think they will succeed. But it'll take time because they're small.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 11 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]459669[/snapback]</div>

The Xebra is a car. It's a low-speed car that is not intended for highway use. It's an in-town car. With or without kids, I don't drive it on any road where the speed limit is faster than the car can go. There is one such road within Spokane, easily avoided.

It works for me, and it can work as the in-town car for most two-car families. It probably cannot work for most one-car families, or for two-car families where both parents have highway commutes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jun 12 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]460078[/snapback]</div>

Actually it's a 3 wheeled motorcycle as you've said. Does it have any crash rating? What sort of safety features does it have? I assume it has seat belts. Airbags? How well does it do in snow? A top speed of 45 mph is insufficient for the Denver Metro area. You'd have a helluva hard time getting anywhere outside of downtown with that speed limitation. How well do the batteries work when it's 0F-10F?

These sorts of vehicles are an interesting niche but nothing more than that. It's a damn shame that things like the RAV4 are no longer available new and that replacement batteries are unavailable because of f-ing Cobasys.

 

Now now... we're all friends here, after the same goal.

It would seem that Phoenix has lost their contract with Altairnano. Not positive, but it sure smells that way!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jun 13 2007, 12:02 AM) [snapback]460631[/snapback]</div>

No way?! Can you expand??

 

Wow this is big news Darell!

Why would they have lost their battery deal with altair?!? That could, in my mind really risk the phoenix project! What other suppliers can they hope for?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jun 12 2007, 09:34 AM) [snapback]460253[/snapback]</div>

Tripp

It is unusual to see you speak so harshly. I don't think it is called for in this case. I have had a Xebra PK for two months and it is a fine local use vehicle. It is not good for freeway use. But I have yet to accumulate a cost of $10.00 for fuel (350 miles). It is not as comfortable or a quiet as a Prius, but it is a whole lot better than no EV at all. It is amazing the number of "attaboys" and "way to gos" that I get from strangers.

We must walk before we can run. If we don't walk, we may not run.

Allan

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Jun 13 2007, 04:45 AM) [snapback]460743[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Jun 13 2007, 08:06 AM) [snapback]460858[/snapback]</div>

Yeah... Darell the walking rumor mill....

Phoenix has (had?) a contract with Altair nano that stipulated so many million$ of battery orders by a certain date. That date has apparently come and gone without the gonzo orders. Altairnano has been seen sleeping around with another start-up in the UK. The Phoenix plan is most definitely built around this one battery, so I'm not sure where the chips will fall.

I'm also not convinced that I'm not just blowing smoke at this point. This is mostly still rumor right now!

Here is the mistress EV company in the UK. Still Vaporware, of course.
http://www.lightningcarcompany.com/

Go to Technology -> Nanosafe. And realize that these were to be exclusive to the Phoenix.

 

I have a vague recollection that the Phoenix agreement was only for vehicles for sale in America from xxxx up to xxxx lbs curbweight - not sure where I read that though. If it's true, it would leave Altair able to provide packs to assemblers based elsewhere or for different vehicle designs.

I heard a recent interview with the Altair CEO and he sounded very positive about the Phoenix trucks. However, when pressed, he admitted that he HAS also been approached recently by the major automakers and tier 1 suppliers.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ozyran @ Jun 11 2007, 05:54 AM) [snapback]459467[/snapback]</div>

The vehicles in this article are based on the Ssang Yong Actyon (the SUV) and the Ssang Yong Actyon Sport (the pickup). If it's up to quality, Toyota won't have any difficulties winning over the products of Phoenix Motorcar. The article states that the Actyon is tested here in Europe, but as far as I know, Euro NCAP has yet to crash these cars. Perhaps ADAC has tested them, but that really isn't a mark of quality, hey, they crash tested the Jiangling Landwind, a car that failed miserably score wise, that is - it got 0 points while the Prius scored 5 (maximum) when Euro NCAP tested it. The point is, Ssang Yong makes inexpensive SUVs that are not up to par when it comes to safety and quality while Toyota makes safe cars that seldom breaks because of bad engineering or design.




By the way, if you do an image search to see Ssang Yong products, please don't blame me if you seriously hurt your eyes stumbling across some of their vehicles. The Rodius, for example, is absolutely hideous.