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Another Denier Wakes up and smells the coffee,,

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by icarus, Oct 7, 2010.

  1. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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  2. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Couldn't have said it better:
    Or currently; The Earth is the center of the universe.

    BTW, hi Icky, haven't seen you around lately...
     
  3. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I disagree with the premise that the bulk of us expressing concern over global warming accept the notion that there is only reasonable point of view, and perhaps only one solution. I myself have written extensively on the notion that the research conclusions contain a range of effects and ergo a range of potential solutions.

    What seems to be true, and increasingly so, is that deniers tend to either ignore, or disbelieve in the basic tenants of much if not all science and therefore discount the climate science research. Those that cannot accept the basic building blocks of the scientific method can hardly be taken seriously as critics of that science. (And increasingly seem to be charter members of the Flat Earth Society!)

    The great sadness is that the clock is clearly ticking, and ticking fast to those that can see. The consequences by most consensus also gets more serious as time goes by, and the solutions therefore become much harder (and expensive!) to implement.

    If we listen to the flat earthers instead of the people who really know and understand the issues we will all pay the price.

    As yet another "weather" anecdote consider my current situation. Last fall, in N.W Ontario (a sub arctic climate) we had record late freeze up, with water that was swimable until mid October. We then had no below zero (F) after January, and no snow after Feburary. We had temps near 70F in March, when they should be ~10F, leading to our ice breaking up 8 weeks early. This past summer was hotter and muggier than any of us could remember, with water temps nearing 85F, (we have never seen the water temp above 75F and then only rarely)

    Now, in early October, we are having a string of weather with temps in the mid 70's during the day, down to the 50's at night. Normally we would be about 35F during the day, 15-20F at night. The water temp is currently 60F, where normally it is closer to 40F. We have had one night of frost, usually we have first frost ~Sept 1, and nearly every day after.

    So, is that weather? Sure. Is it an example of global warming? I personally think so, but only history will tell. Is it a harbinger of years to come? I think so.
     
  4. PriuStorm

    PriuStorm Senior Member

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  5. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    You have to remember that fundamentalist Christians don't believe in global warming can be caused by man because they believe God is going to really warm things up at the end of the world.
     
  6. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    ^ Wow, where did you learn that?
     
  7. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    My niece, a former Young Republican co-chair for Western Tennessee. And good friend to Gov Sonny Perdue of Georgia.

    We aren't close nowadays...
     
  8. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Ah... good to see one of you has good sense.
     
  9. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    And many believe (ala James Watt) two other things. One is that humans were put on this earth to exploit it's resources,, use it up! and two, the end of times is coming soon, so soon enough we won't have to worry about the effect we have on the planet!

    Kind of hard to argue science and logic when people come to the table with that notion up front! I, at the very least, like to consider the possibilities if I am indeed wrong.

    If for example I am wrong about global warming, the consequences of being wrong, but being proactive now are, cheaper energy going forward, a cleaner planet, greater national security, a boost to the economy etc. What's not to like? Oh, I forget, people are concerned ab out some perceived loss of "liberty", but in fact they are worried that it might effect their pocket book short term, despite the benefits longer term!
     
  10. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Really? Have you considered that you are wrong and that God of the Holy Bible exists?
     
  11. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Certainly, but we discounted that idea long ago.

    Tom
     
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  12. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Fair enough... but I was really asking Icky.
     
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  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Shouldn't this really be greedy author changes position to sell more books?

    Science isn't really part of this equation is it?
     
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  14. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Well, you know, truth and profit don't always go hand in hand. ;)

    Tom
     
  15. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Absolutely I have considered it. I live my life fully within the ten Commandments. I am as good a steward of my land (the earth!) as I can be, I treat people with the respect they deserve, and all things considered I lead a very "moral" life. With the exception of some of my "liberal" beliefs I would probably pass muster in most evangelical churches.

    That said, I don't believe that any God would be a vengeful god who punishes those who live a honest, good life just because they haven't bought into all the dogma and the self righteousness and basic hypocrisy I see in so many "Christian".

    I would posit that I am a much better "Christian" than some, even though I don't believe in the God of the Holy Bible.

    Let me just add, that I am a practicing agnostic, who believes in the goodness and "Godliness" of everyone, until they prove themselves un worthy of that by their actions.

    I guess my broader point is, to use Biblical teachings/prophecy/dogma to debate a basic argument of science is silly. If you believe that because you are a devout Christian then "God has a plan" and ergo every thing you do to or for the earth is therefore "covered" there is no basis for a rational debate.

    I have less than zero interest in debating theology with you or anyone else. I concede that I would lose the debate on points since I have so much less knowledge to draw on.

    If you wish to debate the merits of global warming issues from a scientific perspective, then feel free, but if ones answer is, "because the OT tells me so" the conversation is over.

    Thank you
     
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  16. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    No thank you! I appreciate your honesty and openness. I am just curious though,,, without looking them up, could you list the 10 Commandments? Honestly given just five minutes, I could only come up with 6.
    I also totally understand what your are saying about the hypocrites out there that say they are Christian but are far, far, far from the truth. I was there not too long ago myself, sadly. But the $64 Million dollar question is: is that God's fault?
     
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    It is a forum for the environment. True belief in AGW or a christian god should be outside the scope. Scientific items should be the rigor.

    I'll give you a start. The first commandment is
    "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery". This is a commandment to believe in god that can influence worldly things.

    So no icarus, you do not follow the 10 commandments. Does that really matter though? In the time of the 10 commandments there were different rules, those for believers and those for non-believers. Non-believers were just held to the standards of living a moral life. Many christian denominations hold a different standard, that one must be a believer, but this is no where in the old testament.
     
  18. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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  19. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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  20. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I probably can't get all ten, but that really isn't the point.
    It is interesting that so many of them are Shall not's, rather than shall.

    Kill, commit adultery,lie, steal, covet ones neighbours stuff, honour your parents, I think there is gluttony there as well. So there is 6 or seven. (all of whom I have more or less obeyed).

    What I find as a chuckle is that even those that express to have the ear of God, seem to disagree as to what is the right word(s).

    Feel free to carry on this conversation, but I suggest that you might be served better taking to FHoPancakes.

    PS. My Native American (Canadian actually) relatives might have a different version/vision of "God". (As do my Buddhist friends) Are they any more right (or wrong) than you,,, or me. I don't think so.
     
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