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another new document for Prius... ENERGY

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by john1701a, Apr 16, 2005.

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  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Just like the "for newbies" document on the PSD, there is now one in the works to describe the ENERGY-FLOW that takes place in Prius.

    Here's where you'll find it... http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-energy.htm

    [Broken External Image]:http://john1701a.com/prius/images/Prius_Energy-Flow_document.jpg

    It's currently in draft form (the image & labeling complete but no text to explain the flow added yet).

    Let me know what you think. The goal is to keep it as simple as possible, with the intent of it being used as an introduction to the technology. And yes, I plan on using it at 2 different "Earth Day" events I'll be attending with the Prius next weekend. So the missing text, and the resulting feedback, needs to be completely rather quickly.

    Thanks in advance.
     
    #1 john1701a, Apr 16, 2005
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I think it's plenty simple enough. I guess the only thing that comes to mind is that It isn't quite as obvious to me that the PSD actually ties all 3 'power sources' together just by the diagram. That said I sure can't think of a better way to do it either.

    The money of this diagram will be the descriptive text...I think understanding the different jobs of MG1 and MG2 at different times is the hardest part of the concept for folks to get...and remember.
     
    #2 efusco, Apr 16, 2005
  3. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    What if you kinda encircled the PSD with the ICE, MG1 & MG2....

    I've got a picture in my head, but I'm at work and don't have the photoshop know how to make a picture.
     
    #3 efusco, Apr 16, 2005
  4. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The text is now available... as shown in the dynamically updating image above.
     
    #4 john1701a, Apr 16, 2005
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Toyota now use the term "Power Booster" instead of Inverter. This is exclusive only to HSD and I believe Ford full hybrid does not have the booster.

    Another thing I notice is that you refer to MG1 as 10kW. Are you sure? If battery pack is 21kW and MG2 is 50kW, I would say MG1 is at least 29kW. Otherwise, MG2 would never reach it's max power.

    You might want to include the small 12v Lead acid battery there as well. It would have one direction arrow from the booster to 12v.
     
    #5 usbseawolf2000, Apr 16, 2005
  6. geminirat

    geminirat Junior Member

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    Looks colorful with a nice layout but the font is too small - I can't read it nor enlarge it!
     
    #6 geminirat, Apr 16, 2005
  7. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    "Power Booster"? Maybe they've called it that in a public brochure or something, but the repair manuals, and NCF still call them Inverters. I'd stick with that terminology.

    I think including the 12v is a good idea to help people understand the 2 battery concept...there could be a second arrow from the 12v to "accessories" or something.
     
    #7 efusco, Apr 16, 2005
  8. DanP

    DanP Member

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    You must download the file to which the link above the picture points.
     
    #8 DanP, Apr 16, 2005
  9. kenmac

    kenmac New Member

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    John,
    On the diagram, you need to show the flow to the wheels also.
    Evan's suggestion re using a "circular" format, with the PSD at the centre, is worth trying.
    Also, I suggest the use circular symbols for the ICE, MG's, PSD and wheels, with the other bits as rectangles.
    It's difficult to explain the concept of a motor/generators to non-technical people, but it's necessary to be able to understand "regenerative".
    Keep up the good work - accurate education is the best means of "spreading the word"!
    Hopefully we can all contribute in some way.

    kenmac
     
    #9 kenmac, Apr 16, 2005
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    John, what about colored arrows ...preferably the same color as on the Energy Screen display. Might translate a little better....you'd have a too and a from arrow from most of those.

    I also have some suggestions, corrections, additions to suggest on the text, but I'm gonna have to sit down and think about it more carefully and check my facts first.

    For one, though, I'd make sure to show that you're talking about the THSII at the top. Also, I think the ECU regulates energy flow 10-20 times per second, not per minute.
     
    #10 efusco, Apr 16, 2005
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    I'm aware of the new "Booster" term... but there's still the issue of the changing to AC and second inverter for the A/C motor and the DC/DC converter for the 12V. "Inverter" does make it clear that neither Ford nor Honda have one, and it is an industry standard term. Remember, besides avoiding complexities, we want to make the document unique... unlike anything anyone else has ever published so we can freely use it as we see fit.

    As for the 10kW, that's what I've encountered in the notes I've come across. I'd love to say it's higher... just to spite the competition. Got any official documentation stating the higher value? I know that 29kW is the high-end for electric draw, but does that actually go through MG1?

    Lastly, I debated whether or not mention the 12-volt. It got left off when I finally realized it was just another electric "device" drawing power, much like the Steering & A/C.
     
    #11 john1701a, Apr 16, 2005
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    I intentionally de-emphasized the PSD, which includes the wheels... since that's what the other "for newbies" document addresses.

    As for the image, be my guest. This link provides the source for the images. You are currently looking at an entire week's worth of deep thought. That's what I finally decided would work best in the grand scheme of things. A "circular" format could be misinterpretted with the actual PSD. It could also be considered a copyright violation, since I have seen other publications referring to it that way.
     
    #12 john1701a, Apr 16, 2005
  13. rick57

    rick57 Member

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    Looks good to me John. Don't want to get to technical for some people. Would just confuse them. If they wanted more info later,then they could be directed to another page with more details or here where there are lots of people willing to fill them in on the specifics. Just my opinion, :roll:
     
    #13 rick57, Apr 16, 2005
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Not really. 12V lead acid battery also power headlight, dome light, computer, etc.. in certain situations. It is a storage device so, I think it should be included.

    As for MG1 power rating, I have no official document. It has been awhile since I did info digging. Maybe the master tech can help. :eek:
     
    #14 usbseawolf2000, Apr 16, 2005
  15. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Great idea.

    If I understood how the car worked more, I'd do it in a an "Inspiration" doc rather than Word but whatever you're comfortable with. Inspiration is available for the P.C. (http://www.inspiration.com)
     
    #15 Godiva, Apr 17, 2005
  16. altaskier

    altaskier New Member

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    I have two suggestions regarding the ICE on the diagram:
     
    #16 altaskier, Apr 17, 2005
  17. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    The arrow has to go to the ICE too since MG1 is how the ice is started.

    I do think it might be more in keeping with the KISS concept to eliminate the kW completely. You clearly are trying to deemphesis technical stuff, and the concept of kW is well beyond the average non-techy person.

    As far as a diagram there's not going to be any 'copyright' violation just using a circular design...no more than there would be using a non-circular design if your information was already infringing upon an existing concept.

    I still agree that the 12v should at least be included with a unidirectional arrow--there are way too many people who have questions about "the battery" or "My battery is dead" questions not truely appreciating the fact that there is more than one and that they work completely differently.
     
    #17 efusco, Apr 17, 2005
  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    > 12V lead acid battery also power headlight

    No, that power for the HID headlights originates from the battery-pack. Several sunset photo shoots have proven that. I'll shut off the Prius at 6 bars. Leave the lights on for 45 minutes to an hour. Then when I start the engine back up, it's only at 2 bars.

    I'm still against showing the 12V battery alone. It simply doesn't make any sense, since there are other devices that draw electricity too. So, you've convinced me to add a new object (with a one-way arrow). The label will include "12-Volt Auxilliary Battery, Electric Steering, Electric A/C".
     
    #18 john1701a, Apr 17, 2005
  19. geminirat

    geminirat Junior Member

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    Give me some credit Dan. I have opend the link in three different browsers and cannot enlarge it so I can read it. Why am I the only one having trouble? Even if I could read it I'm not sure how much I would understand anyway.
     
    #19 geminirat, Apr 17, 2005
  20. kidtwist

    kidtwist New Member

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    After clicking on the link scroll to the bottom of the page and download it. You can download it as a PDF or as a Word document.
     
    #20 kidtwist, Apr 17, 2005
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