Another Oil-Catch Can Install (moroso) - with Pics & theory.

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by wr69, Nov 14, 2021.

  1. wr69

    wr69 Junior Member

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    Hey folks, Here is a writeup of my OCC install on Gen3 2010 (140k miles). I documented this in-depth to help spread the joy. Special thanks to NutzAboutBolts (YouTube), Mendel (Prius chat) and others for info provided. Each install helps the next and hopefully, this document gives you some extra insight, which will keep your car running much longer into the future! I would still like more concrete answers and explanation on this problem, and will try to document them, as I hit them. I'm putting the document on a dropox account so I can update it, as I don't see how to edit a doc in priuschat after the first person replies. If someone knows how to maintain a living document on these forums, let me know.

    Dropbox - Gen3Prius_OCC_writeup.pdf - Simplify your life
     
    #1 wr69, Nov 14, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  2. StarCaller

    StarCaller Senior Member

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    "The engine computer may then think it’s getting more air, resulting in more fuel feed, which is creating a lean burning condition,"
    more fuel with less air is a rich condition, so no overheating because of a lean condition /
     
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  3. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    I think I installed my OCC in a unique location, I've never seen another in the same place.

    It's between the inverter coolant reservoir and the engine.

    It's on an L-bracket, attached under a bolt holding an existing bracket for the AC refrigerant lines.

    The hoses run between the engine and the intake manifold, and have a fiberglass heat sleeve around them.

    Also, the PCV valve has been relocated to the outlet on the OCC. To all the sharp eyed people with Ruien OCC, yes I reversed the inlet and outlet on the OCC. I believe that the filter should be on the outlet side not the inlet for this design.

    This location does require a 180 degree fitting or U-bend tubing to reverse the direction of the PCV valve outlet.

    20211113_191543.jpeg 20211008_165142.jpeg

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    #3 xliderider, Nov 14, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  4. AzusaPrius

    AzusaPrius Active Member

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    That is not the inverter coolant, that is the engine coolant.
     
  5. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    Yes, of course, correct.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  6. wr69

    wr69 Junior Member

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    thx for the callout! im just getting up to speed on this car business. i misspoke and mistyped. This is why i wanted to edit the document as I go and get feedback from folks! so thx. I am not a car expert - just trying to piece things together.

    Some internet browsing suggests this: the causes for your engine running lean are likely one of the following:
    • A vacuum leak
    • Faulty pump regulator
    • Poor fuel pressure
    • Insufficient fuel
    • The EGR valve is stuck in the open position
    In reviewing the sticky EGR valve TSB for these Gen3, I see this "sticky" issue is probably an open condition caused by excess carbon build up. That would result in higher burn temps after the computer thought the valve should be closed but really wasn't and threw in less fuel for the calculated air mixture (fresh - egr), which was really (fresh + egr)?

    This still doesn't get to the root cause of excess carbon build, probably caused by burning oil though.

    BTW, I just updated the PDF to v1.1 with the new ideas you triggered. If you want to critique, would appreciate!
     
    #6 wr69, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  7. wr69

    wr69 Junior Member

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    thx xliderider for the details. I like your idea of moving the PCV valve. Is it still horizontal? I would be a bit concerned about moving it but cannot say why. perhaps the catch-can changes the dynamics of the vacuum, result in less vacuum and a change when the valve opens/closes? How many miles on your car? How much oil do you catch per 5k miles for example? has oil burn stopped - not sure how you measure that except to gauge long run EGR build up and compare to prior - if that's even possible? Its seems a bit counterintuitive, about the oil loss. For example, if the same amount of "burned oil" is getting caught, at least you are not burning oil, but you may still be loosing some?

    BTW... my OCC fit in that same spot you placed yours, and i thought about it, but I was looking for some easy mounting points too. and the inverter had them!
     
    #7 wr69, Nov 15, 2021
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  8. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    For me, the OCC would be very tight behind the headlight. Plus, I need easy access to the headlights. I have HIDs installed, and I need to remove them yearly to swap in halogen bulbs to pass inspection. Aftermarket lighting is technically illegal.

    Regarding the inspection, I am still debating whether to go to the inspection with the highly visible OCC installed, or remove the OCC and put in a U-bend tube temporarily to reconnect the PCV valve/system before going to the inspection.

    My neighbor who owns a shop that does inspections said it shouldn't be a problem, but I guess it depends on how picky the inspector is. He said they're only supposed to be looking for fuel leaks and electrical problems like worn wiring insulation.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  9. wr69

    wr69 Junior Member

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    sounds like you have a picky HI inspector agency. i think since the OCC is a closed system, it should be fine. those HID bulbs are another issue. im noticing a lot of people are now getting new cars or upgrading their headlights with super bright lights in regular mode. Its pretty blinding at night for many of these cars. not sure why we are allowed to have these super bright lights. Is brightness one reason HI doesn't allow them? Maybe the folks in oregon (my state) are doing the same thing!
     
  10. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    Yes, bright and blinding, especially SUVs and trucks that are pretty high.

    I think the especially blinding ones are running 55w HIDs instead of 35w HIDs, or bright LEDs.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  11. StarCaller

    StarCaller Senior Member

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    that is food for thought /
    looking at this image makes me think which way is better/more efficient /

    [​IMG]
     
    #11 StarCaller, Nov 15, 2021
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  12. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    Yes, I've seen illustrations like that.

    My thinking is that most, if not all the oil is in vapor/small droplet form, carried by a warm/hot air mixture. Coming through a small inlet, there isn't much "cooling" of the gases before hitting the baffles and stainless steel pot scrubber material that most people put in there, so that filter material remains hot.

    By reversing the flow, the oil/air mixture immediately expands into the OCC chamber. Gases naturally cool down and lose heat when allowed to expand. Then the cooled mixture will exit past the filtering material, that is already wet with previously condensed oil.

    Additionally, I have installed much more surface area in my OCC for the oil droplets to condense on. I purchased micro stainless mesh and rolled it up into cylinders, then folded the ends over to make funnels that are 3-4 layers thick and installed them over both the inlet and outlet sides of the OCC. I have also stuffed more stainless potscrubber mesh into the larger funnel, further increasing the available surface area for the oil to condense onto.

    Even at 4 layers thick, the micro mesh stainless screen does not affect air flow like some of the sintered brass filters found in air/oil separators, which can be plugged up and restrict air flow. The screen should catch and get wet from the oil. This should make the filter more efficient at grabbing more oil out of the vapor mixture, just like the oiled K&N filters are efficient because they are pre-oiled before use. Screenshot_20211101-110755_Amazon%20Shopping.jpeg 20211113_084324.jpeg 20211113_084401.jpeg 20211115_104857.jpeg

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    #12 xliderider, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
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  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Unfortunately I think all you can do is repost the pdf when revised. I did ask about this a while back, if I could get unlimited edit privileges, at least for some postings of mine, mainly the ones linked in my signature.
     
  14. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    I'm also considering installing a modified air/oil separator after the OCC. I've replaced the sintered brass restrictive filter with rolled up micro mesh stainless steel screen that's about 4 layers thick.

    The blue stuff at the bottom is there to seal the leaky valve for emptying the bowl. It's been suggested to use JB Weld for that, but I used Tru Blu thread sealant that is fuel and oil resistant.

    I like the idea of having a filter with a clear bowl so I can see how much oil I'm catching. It will be secondary to the main OCC, so I'm not sure what kind of results I'll get.

    20211113_092752.jpeg 20211113_092814.jpeg 20211113_104133.jpeg

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    #14 xliderider, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  15. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Why not take it to him to do the inspection? They you won't have to remove/install it every year?

    "My neighbor who owns a shop that does inspections said it shouldn't be a problem, but I guess it depends on how picky the inspector is. He said they're only supposed to be looking for fuel leaks and electrical problems like worn wiring insulation."

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.[/QUOTE]
     
  16. wr69

    wr69 Junior Member

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    regarding the mesh, here is my 2 cents: im not sure temperature changes much but when the air expands to a larger cavity, it should cool, resulting in droplets forming. You probably want the mesh as close to the inlet port of the can as possible and a good heaping of mesh. a single layer for example might not be able to catch as much as multiple layers. Additionally, if the mesh is in the bottom of the can and inlets are on top, the airflow might bypass a lot of the mesh. So in that regard, i think the moroso, by way of a somewhat robust mesh above the batch of oil, might not be a bad design. NOTE: I dont work for or am not endorsed by moroso! But if they want to give me a free new can - ill take one - i can pay my mortgage this month then! LOL :)

    Now all of this is a moot point, unless there is some way to measure the effectiveness of oil catch. I thought about this some more and added to the document (v1.2) and just uploaded to dropbox. We need some quantitative data from someone who has watched the before and after oil-burn (dipstick drop), when a can is installed. here is a excerpt from what i wrote in the PDF:


    What size/volume to get? Moroso seems to come in 300ml (small) and 500ml (large). The ruien OCC, which many have installed in their Prius is 400ml. In reviewing other folks’ “catches”, it seems like the 300ml container will work fine, even in a “heavy-catch” Prius. Anything bigger may not fit in most spots in Gen3 Prius anyway. Anything smaller – there are a few tiny cans available - might be too small.

    Another way to think about volume: How much oil does your Prius burn in 5k/10k miles. Most people concerned about oil-burn are changing their oil at 5k now, rather than the recommended 10k from Toyota. If you burn ½ quart every 10k miles, that may be about ¼ quart every 5k miles. ¼ qt. is about ¼ of a liter or 250ml. So, a 300 ml can is going to be tight, but should work. This is a theoretical limit through, assuming the can catches all oil passing through it.

    How efficient is my OCC? Is it even working “well”? This question can be answered by using the above logic, assuming you know how much oil you are burning before installing the can. For example, do you burn ¼ quart every 5k miles? If so, there should be about 250ml of oil in the can after install. If after 5k mile you have ½ of that, the can is only 50% efficient! If you were burning 1 quart every 5k miles before the can and are now only catching 250ml in the OCC every 5k miles, that’s about a 25% efficiency rate. So you are just delaying the inevitable by say 25% in time. Head gasket in 2 years goes to head gasket in 2.5 years for example.

    I’m interested to hear some results of folks installs, as it would be good to know if these things are working, or we are just wasting our money, and delaying the inevitable engine rebuild.
     
    #16 wr69, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  17. xliderider

    xliderider Senior Member

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    [/QUOTE]I have in the past, but he always refuses payment. I feel bad about that and I don't want to take advantage of his generosity. I know how hard it is to run a small business.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  18. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Then you but him dinner, or leave the money anyway.
    If you find a good technician, stick with him!

    I have in the past, but he always refuses payment. I feel bad about that and I don't want to take advantage of his generosity. I know how hard it is to run a small business.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.[/QUOTE]
     
  19. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    When referring to Boyle's Law, that a gas cools as it expands in a container, don't forget an additional requirement for applying Boyle's Law: the container must be closed. This will cause pressure to drop as the container expands.

    An OCC is an open container, having inlet and outlet. Other than any substantial flow resistance in the attached tubes or through filter media, there is little meaningful pressure drop at the container, thus causing little meaningful temperature change from this supposed 'expansion' that doesn't really happen.

    Temperature drops due to heat loss through the surface of the container or tubing or any added 'heat exchanger' are another matter. Might this be a productive route for cooling the gas and condensing the oil vapor, by making more concerted efforts to extract or shed heat from this vapor flow? And of course, apply this cooling before the vapor reaches the filter media.
     
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  20. wr69

    wr69 Junior Member

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    thx fuzzy, i appreciate the comments. but im more confused now though. :)
    what is the primary mechanism for how oil catch cans condense oil?

    BTW... just found this link, which is a good teardown of the G2 Prius engine. Number one problem is.... oil burning and piston ring coking, causing more oil burning. There seems to be a fair amount of sludge in the oil pan too, which probably doesn't help. I'm wondering if Toyota made a mistake in recommending 10K OCI with this engine. it used to be 5k, but somewhere along the line, they changed that - probably for marketing reasons and trusting the oil vendor - mobil1?

    Here's What A Toyota Prius Engine Looks Like With 303,000 Miles
     
    #20 wr69, Nov 16, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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