... anybody got a crappy, broken down EV1 Chevy on jackstands, out in the backyard?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by asjoseph, Feb 20, 2022.

  1. asjoseph

    asjoseph Samuel, '04 Ruthiemobile

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    ... hey hey hey! Let's go make some money:

    https://justthenews.com/government/congress/house-democrats-support-passing-2500-federal-credit-used-ev-purchases

    So, go scare us up, say - an old, crappy EV1 Chevy? Maybe, a junkyard Leaf? You sell it to me; I'll sell it to you; you sell it to me; I'll sell it back. We can laugh, all the way to the bank, live the high life off the fat of the land, buy ourselves brand new gas guzzlers, pingponging it back 'n forth!

    Bless their hearts, thank our lucky stars for... democrats. Where would America be without them? - asj.
     
    #1 asjoseph, Feb 20, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2022
  2. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    I took the time to read the article and here is a quote from the article:

    "Toyota is one of the nonunion manufacturers publicly outspoken against providing additional EV credits to customers who purchase U.S. union-made EVs, arguing that it results in unfair competition.

    "This isn't fair. This isn't right," the company said in an ad late last year. "Congress needs to put the politics aside on this one. Do the right thing. Treat all American autoworkers fairly.""

    A good question for the Bill's Sponsors is why only Union Made? Would they support a Bill that gave incentives to only Non-Union made- if not why?

    This is an example of Special Legislation where Supporters and Donors are paid off by passing specialized Legislation to pick winners and losers and to buy their votes. This is exactly what America is not supposed to be.

    Biden makes indefensible pay off to labor unions on electric vehicles - www.elizabethton.com | www.elizabethton.com

    There are just as many patriotic Americans who work in the Auto Industry who are not Union Members, maybe more!
     
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    And you would soon have a visit from the IRS.

    In the BBB bill, a used car was only eligible for the credit one time after the the bill passed, and the car couldn't be bought for resale. On top of that, a person could only claim the credit once every three years. Odds are they won't drop the bits there to prevent abusive loopholes.

    https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR5376RH-RCP117-18.pdf
    The relevant part starts on page 1501

    In the thread on the BBB, I said I'd prefer to see a credit based on domestic content, or failing that, something based on the wage of the factory workers. Passing laws is a messy business though.

    The original bill for the tax credit now in effect would have given the PiP nothing, as the battery capacity requirement started at 5kWh. So it isn't like Toyota is without clout in this arena.
     
  4. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    That part of your proposal is fair, apolitical, equitable to all domestic manufacturers and would help stimulate EV's. It is a shame politicians don't listen to people like yourself to make common sense Bills that would be attractive and fair to everyone.
     
  5. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Gotta wonder how many used plug ins would actually qualify under this

    many new plug ins don’t qualify for anything under current law for one reason or another

    (pdf has a repeated error, lol can’t navigate to 1501)
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Going to be a lot of wondering until we see actual text of the bill.

    Mmm, still works for me in Firefox.

    Maybe working one for you can be found here, RULES COMMITTEE PRINT 117–18 T EXT OF H.R. 5376, B UILD BACK BETTER ACT - Google Search
     
  7. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Hmm, previously owned $2000
    and 40kwhr+ for extra $2k that’s a very small subset

    that fuel tank size bs should be thrown out as it actually drives worse behaviors than if the tank can be any size, also may as well read 2019 i3-Rex supplemental credit since nothing else has that spec

    97C78C9B-2359-4CDB-882A-2BBE7F62FE9A.png
     
  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    BBB is DOA.....
     
  9. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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  10. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Isn't listening to the FED for a 'man-splainer' on economics about like listening to the CDC for dampanic advice? ;)
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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  12. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    If EVs ever become a viable replacement for what EVangelists call 'gassers' - and judging by the number of "me too!" models that they were hawking in the SuperBowl commercials BEVs WILL BE a viable replacement, then just about the best thing for dot.gov to do would be to get and STAY out of their way.
    When the Henry Ford of BEVs starts bitching about dot.gov's efforts to "help" the industry, then that's what folks in the intel biz call...."an indicator."

    I've said for years now that BEV technology will have reached its potential when dot.gov starts TAXING them, instead of dolling out targeted tax breaks to special interests.

    All of that , interesting though it may be.....is irrelevant though.

    Be it a good thing.....a bad thing.....or somewhere in-between, BBB is the Merck Garland of spending bills.
    It's gone.
    History.

    They may dig up the carcass and rub it on a new spending bill to get that "BBB smell" but I'm thinking that between chip shortages, inflation, the Great Resignation....(labor force participation rates) there isn't going to be much of an appetite for a blunderbuss spending bill that would take 6 people 12 days to read and 24 weeks to translate to US English.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    What behaviors are you thinking of?

    Not having a limit have resulted in bad behaviors in Europe. There PHEVs emitted more carbon emissions, because the incentives were just like the old flexfuel ones here. It helped sell cars, but had no measure to have drivers to use the alternate fuel. Businesses would buy a PHEV in the EU because of the tax incentive, and give it to an employee who had no way of charging at home. The company might even reimburse the employee for gas, but not charging fees. The big PHEV sellers there are the Outlander and a BMW SUV, models that don't do much better than the ICE version when using gas.

    That's what the 2.5gal tank is trying to avoid, people buying a PHEV and not charging it. It could be larger. CARB's ruling for the REx was that gas range couldn't exceed EV range. That with a cap of say 200 to 250 mile gas range would be better, or a limit on range extender power; like how the i3 REx can't supply full power to the car alone.

    The original text didn't have a gas tank limit, so it was probably to add it during debate. The qualifications for the extra credit are the ones for new plug ins.
     
  14. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Aftermarket fuel cells and carrying jerrycans on cargo carriers

    I have a PHEV so I can use the car in the vast charging deserts
    When I considered an i3 Rex as my only replacement car I was shown how/where to get a fuel cell and to attach a rear hitch mounted trunk for gasoline and supplies, not that I wouldn’t do those things to drive in the wilderness but I shouldn’t need to.

    If we are concerned about co2 emissions we need to enforce fuel economy requirements not just on PHEVs and we need to address stationary sources differently than we have recently
    We also need to address why people can’t or won’t charge, having 110vac available to apartment dwellers would be a start and if electricity is more expensive than gasoline (which in a few rare areas it is) that is a societal failure as it means it’s cheaper albeit illegal to be off grid.
     
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  15. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Speaking only for myself I like to keep things as simple as possible. I make practical decisions mostly based on my wallet. When we bought our PHEV in 2019 I received a $4950 tax credit which I used to deposit more money into our Roth account at the end of tax year 2019.

    Also for me a PHEV is a cost advantage:
    Our electric utility rate is $.09 kwh
    Our current gas price is $3.30 per gallon.

    Our PHEV goes 30 miles on a full charge, get about 50 mpg of gas
    Cost:
    30 miles on electric= $.09Kwh x 8 Kw battery = $0.72
    30 miles on gas = 30/50 x $3.30 = $1.98

    I could care less about the politics my wallet tells me to drive on electric.
    With a PHEV I will choose gas or electric based on price. Our trips are almost all less than 30 miles so I have the luxury of deciding what fuel source to use. It is an easy decision based only on cost. I am a good citizen and do everything I can to help the environment, but I am not out too single handedly save the world - for me cost is king.
     
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  16. srellim234

    srellim234 Senior Member

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    From Legislators propose $2,500 federal tax credit for used EVs

    "...It wouldn't apply to dealers, and people would only be allowed one credit per three year period. Eligibility would also be phased down for buyers whose adjusted gross income exceeds $75,000 for individuals, and $150,000 for joint filers..."

    Good luck financing your new gas guzzler with what's left of your $833-a-year windfall that will be reduced by paying three years' worth of registration and insurance on that beat up EV.
     
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  17. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    S.2537 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Affordable EVs for Working Families Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

    State: "introduced" (read aloud)
    Date: July 2021.

    As they say on a certain government-funded radio podcast: "......Things may have changed by the time you hear this......."

    :censored: :whistle:
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Are gas stations just as uncommon as chargers in those regions? I see the risk of taking those steps, but it doesn't seem worth the hassle along the routes I travel.

    The Clarity PHEV had a gas only range of maybe 270 miles to augment an EV range under 50 miles. For a plug in with around 150 miles EV, 200 miles on gas would be plenty for trips, but likely low enough for most to never plug in. The 2.5 gallon tank proposal would likely mean half that range, but it never passed.

    Keep in mind that tank limitation was just for additional tax credits. The BBB started the minimum battery capacity at 7 or 10 kWh. A PHEV with shorter EV range would still get the starting amount, and should cost less to begin with because of the smaller battery. Earlier i3 REx's wouldn't qualify for the extra amount under the used proposal because their packs didn't hit 40kWh.

    It doesn't sound like the recent used plug in proposal includes the extra $2000 with small tank anyway.
    Those European PHEVs likely would meet current CAFE targets in hybrid mode. It is just that many hybrids and PHEVs being sold aren't of Prius level efficiency. Even on a 'dirty' grid, a PHEV's EV carbon emissions are much better than its hybrid one though.

    Plenty of people bought PiPs, Volts, and PPs for the HOV access with no intention of charging. So we do need to be proactive when writing incentives to discourage such behavior, or not reward it at least.

    We do need to start addressing the slow charging needs of the population that can't do so now. The BBB might of done so.
     
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