1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Are online pricing sites a good measure of actual price?

Discussion in 'Dealers & Pricing' started by McLintock!, May 6, 2012.

  1. McLintock!

    McLintock! New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    81
    7
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore-Washington corridor in MD
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I'm looking to buy a Prius at the of this month (doesn't HAVE to be this month but I would prefer it). I'm in the Baltimore-Washington corridor. I recently started checking prices. I could go for a Prius II, Prius III, Prius V (2 or 3). I'm using Prius II in this example for my zip code. Here are some of prices I've seen on various sites.



    CarsDirect
    • MSRP PRICING:$24,760
    • INVOICE PRICING:$23,770
    • Target Price: $24,170
    TrueCar (free version)
    • Target Price: 24,426
    Kelly Blue Book
    • MSRP: 24,760
    • Fair: 23,787
    • Dealer: 23,320
    Carwoo.com
    • $22,790 - $23,523 (yeah right!)
    Consumer Reports (paid version powered by TrueCar)
    • MSRP Base 24,000
    • MSRP Total: 24,760 (760 Destination Fee)
    • Dealer Base Invoice: 22,560
    • Dealer Total Invoice: 23,826 (760 Dest Fee + 506 Regional Ad Fee)
    • Dealer Total Invoice Minus Holdback: 23,346 (-480)
    • Target Price (aka Great Price): 24,326
    • Good Price: 24,520
    • Market Average: 24,359
    CR says start negotiating at 23,346 because this is theoretically what it costs the dealer. I was surprised to see that the KBB deal price is very close to the CR (powered by TrueCar) price.



    I looked at the recent pricing thread and found a few sales in MD and VA for a Prius II
    • 02/24/2012 - 22,974 - MD
    • 02/27/2012 - 23,878 - MD
    • 03/12/2012 - 23,671 - VA
    • 03/25/2012 - 24,316 - VA
    Either everyone on here is an above average negotiator or all those site's good/great/target prices are crap since most of those prices are near 23,346. It is also a very small sample to work with.

    23,750 plus the dealer processing/PROFIT fee of 199 seems fair which is still 300-500 less than the TrueCar target price which seems to be the average selling price for the area.

    I haven't done the email all the dealers in the area thing yet but I will towards the last 7 days of the month. Now this may not work out as well as I hope since it is a major holiday weekend where there might be tons of foot traffic on the lots which could mean above average sales and dealers may be less willing to go for lower prices.

    My wife did go to some dealers in person which I refuse to do until I'm bringing a check with me. One place my wife visited listed their ePrices at 22,860 with a MSRP of 24,985. The ePrice seems like a scam. This is also the place that said they'd give 500 off and 1.9% financing. The 500 off is ONLY for military and the 1.9% financing actually expired the next day (end of April). Both of these were documented on their web site but the sales people failed to mention either of these stipulations. They didn't lie but they also didn't tell the complete truth. This is why I don't go to dealers until the end. I'll either pay cash or get a loan through my credit union.

    In summary 23,950 (+128 for reg, +100 for title, +1437 for 6% tax = 25,615) seem like it should be a fair price for my area according to the web sites I've looked at. Am I being fair or are the web sites just not that good of a measure for pricing?
     
  2. ralleia

    ralleia Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2012
    386
    137
    0
    Location:
    Omaha, Nebraska, United States
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    I believe that to be a fair price--you are asking $810 off the MSRP of $24,760. Of course, you'd have to open asking for a larger discount than that in order to allow some room for them to haggle with you, and of course it helps if there's a little inventory to motivate them to do a deal.

    In my area, the car buying services were saying that I could get $1300 off MSRP through them, however the local dealer refuses to honor this. Instead they'll tell you that they sell Prius for sticker only. When I told them I was going out of state for my Prius, they offered $500 off MSRP over the phone. This suggests to me that I could well have gotten a couple more hundred off if I wanted to go in and make the deal.

    It sounds like you're going to go in with either "cash" or pre-approved from your own financing source, which is good. They try to obfuscate the terms of the deal when they're doing the financing.

    Also, once you do settle on a price for the car, be prepared to field the pressure sales of the extended service warranty, gap insurance, and all the car treatments that they'll try to sell you. Have those decisions made in advance. Be prepared for all the little tricks that will be sent your way regarding the car treatments--about how the resale value your car will be less if you don't get the treatments, about how "the new kind salt is especially corrosive to the undercarriage, so you really need the undercoating and soundproofing", etc. Drum into your mind such quotes as "Magnesium chloride is less toxic to plant life surrounding highways and airports, and is less corrosive to concrete and steel (and other iron alloys) than sodium chloride," which state the exact reverse of the wisdom that the guy trying to sell you the undercoating is saying.
     
  3. McLintock!

    McLintock! New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    81
    7
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore-Washington corridor in MD
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Interesting... is the dealer part of the car buying network? The places I've looked into (TrueCar) seem to indicate you can print out a certificate with a price and then the dealers they give have to honor it. Unfortunately the TrueCar price is 24,426 which is the same no haggle price listed at local CarMaxes (even though 1 of the mentioned MD prices were from Laurel Carmax and below the fake no haggle price).

    I feel my biggest advantage is they want my money and I could car less if I actually buy the car. i would prefer to but I don't need or even want to. I can walk away at anytime without regrets.

    As far as extended warranty, I plan on buying the one mentioned on the forums (warrantyshack I think). I plan on discussing insurance options with my insurance agent very soon. I don't care about treatments. I can do them myself. I don't care about resale value since I don't trade-in cars. I keep them until they die or become economically unfeasible (current car is 12 years old, 200K miles).

    For inventory it seems like the Prius II has the most (a lot), followed by the Prius III, and then the Prius V II (not many). Which one I pick will probably make the biggest difference on bargaining power.
     
  4. ralleia

    ralleia Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2012
    386
    137
    0
    Location:
    Omaha, Nebraska, United States
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Yes, the dealer is the sole authorized Toyota dealer in the area for the car buying service.

    But if you look carefully at the screens and messages going up to getting your certificate, you'll probably see a little disclaimer that the price might not be valid for hybrid and alt-fuel vehicles. :mad:

    I'm angry about it--if they're not going to honor the price, then their hybrid vehicles should NOT be listed in the car-buying service. The dealership is just using it to get sales leads and then plays exactly the same game with the buying service customer as those who walk in off the street.

    Right now isn't the most advantageous time to be a Prius buyer. Prius just had it's best two sales months ever, which means inventories are low and salesmen's expectations are high.

    The turkey who finally offered me $500 off MSRP threatened that the car I wanted would be sold at full-price in the next 24 hours if I didn't take the deal.

    I don't know what the sales price was on it, but it sat on the lot for two weeks until the last day of April. Too bad I can't look up what it sold for.

    It sounds like our philosophies on car ownership are about the same. We're getting the Prius to replace a '94 Chrysler LHS with 186,000 miles. The only American car that I ever loved. :wub:

    We're actually going to a dealer that is 850 miles away to get our Prius. It'll be a haul, but we plan to make a mini-vacation of it. The dealership offers no-haggle pricing (around $1600 off my Prius four) and I'm too disgusted with the local dealers to want to buy from them.

    Just for comparison, that dealer (Lithia of Billings, MT) has four Prius twos (had six last week) and are selling them at a discount of $2000.
     
  5. ChipL

    ChipL Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    585
    85
    0
    Location:
    Reston, Va
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I was the lucky one on 2/27 :D I bought from Carmax Laurel on a no haggle price before gas shot up and dealers went to sticker price.
     
  6. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    7,028
    1,116
    0
    Location:
    South Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    If you are a AAA member get quotes through them. Their service isn't very helpful to me because one of their closest dealers is in Baltimore.

    If you look in NJ you'll avoid your Region's fees.

    Some dealers will match or come close to a buying service's price. Doesn't cost anything to ask.

    Gas prices are sliding so that is in your favor. If your cars are plentiful on the lots that works in your favor.

    Average prices are just that--an average. One sale at $20000 & two at $30000 each cause the average to be $26666 but nobody pays the average. I suspect the reported figures are accurate as most people don't practice the best methods to get the lowest price.

    In the end you have to decide how much the car is worth to you. Some members waited years to buy a Prius because it wasn't worth MSRP to them.
     
  7. McLintock!

    McLintock! New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    81
    7
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore-Washington corridor in MD
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I would have bought at that price to but I wasn't really looking back then unfortunately.
     
  8. McLintock!

    McLintock! New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    81
    7
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore-Washington corridor in MD
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I might look in NJ but I'm not sure if I can justify the 3-4 hour drive. Maybe if the deal is right and the dealer isn't going to play games with me, then I would consider it.

    Gas prices are sliding but one of my worries is the typical 10-15 cents price jump before the holiday weekend that dealers will use to scare people (not me but others who may buy because of that).

    What do people consider plentiful for a lot? I know it depends on size of the dealer. Some places have 7, some in the 20ies, etc.
     
  9. ChipL

    ChipL Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    585
    85
    0
    Location:
    Reston, Va
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    But in the end it is only about $1000 more - or about $17 more per a month. In finance costs... Or in the almost 3k in 3 months, the savings in gas amounted to about $150 a month savings...

    In the end don't sweat getting the "best" deal, just find a dealer you can trust... On your side of the river you have a luxury I didn't in dealing with Joel at Carmax....

    In the end I invested about 6 hours in a couple of test drives and meet ups with Toney at Tyson's Toyota in trying to buy a 2011 Prius back in Feburary. They lost out in the trade, even with their promise of 125% of KBB "fair" trade value. I knew the KBB value of my trade before going in... So I had hopes of an easy deal....

    I wasn't needing to trade or get in to a new car... So Koons lost and Carmax gained in the end...

    Carmax Laurel Toyota may not have the best deal in town, but the value of the trade is the value without calls the next day with better after better offer... And there no surprises at closing in added costs...

    What is your time worth?
     
  10. Codyroo

    Codyroo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    1,826
    514
    6
    Location:
    Pleasanton, Ca
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Looking at average negotiated prices doesn't give you the full picture. It doesn't tell you if the person did a trade-in and if they got the full value for their trade in. It doesn't tell you about financing and who provided the financing or at what rate.

    Check out this article
    "Confessions of a Car Salesman" Updated for 2009 - Edmunds.com
    (please consider it as required reading and it will be part of the practical exam [i.e. when you buy your car])
     
    chrisdsd1 likes this.
  11. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    7,028
    1,116
    0
    Location:
    South Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    "plentiful" is a relative term & regional. Dealers in CA can have a glut while dealers in NJ can't fully load a car carrier combining their inventory. (There have been times when the inventory of 3 dealers didn't total 6 cars.)

    Tonight, Holman Toyota reports 1 v3, 2 Prius Four, 5 Three, & 3 Two. This is not plentiful but you'll probably do OK if you want a Three or Two.

    How far will you travel to get what you want or save money? Would I go to Balto for my car? No, but my car was a dealer trade from Balto.

    If I could predict gasoline prices I'd be in the futures market. Two weeks out & prices are still sliding down. The Memorial Day sales will be the next big event but I wouldn't expect selling prices close to invoice.
     
  12. McLintock!

    McLintock! New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    81
    7
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore-Washington corridor in MD
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I had read the original back when it came out. I didn't realize there was an update. Thanks for the link.
     
  13. McLintock!

    McLintock! New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    81
    7
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore-Washington corridor in MD
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I would also expect dealers to be pretty tight on negotiation around Memorial Day considering I bet there's a lot of foot traffic on that weekend. I can see them taking a chance on waiting it out to see if someone will buy at their price than let something go for less.
     
  14. McLintock!

    McLintock! New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    81
    7
    0
    Location:
    Baltimore-Washington corridor in MD
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I learned the internet prices on most dealer sites in Maryland are BS. By law it is legal to leave off the freight fee ($760) on the internet price in Maryland. Out of 5 places that had "discounted" internet prices, only 1 actually included the freight fee in that price.

    According to Consumer Reports (powered by TrueCar) I ended up getting a below market average price by around 200 dollars plus an option for free. There were 4 dealers out of the 20-ish that I emailed that were all within the same range of each other ($50-$150). I actually didn't go with the absolute cheapest dealer though. I went with the one that was the second best because they were on the ball from the start, answered all my questions, got exactly what I wanted, and didn't BS me like others did. It was actually an incredibly awesome and painfree buying experience. There's no point in me finding another dealer for future purchases.
     
    Codyroo likes this.