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Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ......

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Dreamer, Dec 13, 2009.

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  1. Dreamer

    Dreamer New Member

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    Green Car of the Year

    The win represents back-to-back wins for both turbo diesels and the VW Group (the Volkswagen Jetta TDI took home last year's award).

    Whatever the final tipping point that led to the award, the messages are clear: Hybrids need to step up their game, and soon, if they want to keep their U.S. advantage over diesels, and the rest of the industry has to step up to Volkswagen Group or face a German three-peat.
     
    #1 Dreamer, Dec 13, 2009
  2. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    The message is that the judges try to award a different car every year.
     
    #2 SageBrush, Dec 13, 2009
  3. finman

    finman Senior Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    What a laughable joke...again! diesel as a "clean car"? Tell me another one. Sheesh. as a species we really are gullable. sorry, but hybrids and electrics are the future...not diesels.
     
    #3 finman, Dec 13, 2009
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    Can you explain it?

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5 Column 6 Column 7
    0 Audi A3 TDI 2010 Prius characteristic
    1 34 MPG 50 MPG EPA composite rating 50.5 MPG (63 vehicles)
    2 small station wagon midsize car EPA vehicle class
    3 109 ft {3} 116 ft {3} passenger and luggage space
    4 $29 950 $24-$30 000 price autobloggreen vs. toyota.com
    .
    Plug-in Prius, so how far does a diesel go on electric power?

    Bob Wilson
     
    #4 bwilson4web, Dec 13, 2009
  5. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    As I posted at http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...ists-announced-l-auto-show-2.html#post1014250, what a joke of an award. The A3 TDI is certainly not green anymore than a multitude of other vehicles which didn't even get nominated and aren't even labeled "green" by the press.

    Dreamer: Besides Bob's points, can you explain it?
    CA spec 2010 Prius greenhouse gas score: 10/10
    CA spec 2010 A3 TDI greenhouse gas score: 8/10

    CA spec 2010 Prius air pollution score: 9.5/10
    CA spec 2010 A3 TDI air pollution score: 7/10

    CA spec 2010 Prius barrels of oil consumed/year: 6.9
    CA spec 010 A3 TDI barrels of oil consumed/year: 11.6
     
    #5 cwerdna, Dec 13, 2009
  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    There goes their credibility two years in a row.
     
    #6 usbseawolf2000, Dec 13, 2009
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    Does this mean they had credibility just before that, when they gave this award to the Chevy Tahoe Hybrid (21 mpg 2WD, 20 mpg 4WD)?
     
    #7 fuzzy1, Dec 13, 2009
  8. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    Nope. Three years in a row then. :D

    CTH would have save a lot of gas but due to the cost and very low sales number, the impact is very minimal. Is it a green car? It is a truck based SUV. It is not green, because it still guzzle a lot of gas.
     
    #8 usbseawolf2000, Dec 13, 2009
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    LA Autoshow "Green Car" award ... the car most likely to wind up on the wrong side of the grass ... or the Greenback dollar race. <GRINS>

    More like the 'kiss of death' award.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #9 bwilson4web, Dec 14, 2009
  10. Dreamer

    Dreamer New Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420r06017.pdf

    On page 16 of 179 the example they give for diesels is ;

    From the EPAs own website on the test today they discount the actual mpgs on diesels by +18.3 to 25% low from actual tested . It lists the number of diesels epa tested over the last decade of which 99.9 % were VW diesel models .


    Here is a good break down of the facts as stated in the epa document


    There is a table on page 8 that lays out the differences and explains them below;

    "As can be seen, diesels appear to perform the best with respect to their label fuel economy, outperforming the label by 4.3%. Conventional gasoline vehicles come very close to meeting their label, falling short by only 1.4%. Conventional vehicles with relatively high combined fuel economy (here assumed to be 32 mpg or more, representing the top 10% of conventional vehicles in terms of fuel economy) performed only slightly worse, falling short by 1.7%. Hybrids fall short by a much larger margin, 8.2%. Thus, the greater shortfall seen with hybrids appears to be more related to hybrid technology than to simply high levels of fuel economy.
    With respect to the mpg-based label values, diesels still perform the best of the four types of vehicles, now exceeding their label values by 18%.b Those conventional vehicles with relatively high fuel economy fall next, followed by the typical conventional vehicle and hybrids. Thus, the Your MPG estimates indicate that hybrid performance differs from that of conventional vehicles, including those with high fuel economy."

    The other interesting part is the mention of them downgrading the EPA reading by a further 9.5% as mentioned below;

    "We also are finalizing an additional downward adjustment to fuel economy estimates within the 5-cycle method. We put in place a downward adjustment to account for effects that cannot be replicated on the dynamo meter. There are many factors that affect fuel economy that are not accounted for in any of our existing test cycles. These include road grade, wind, tire pressure, heavier loads, hills, snow/ice, effects of ethanol in gasoline, and others. We are finalizing a 9.5% downward adjustment to account for these effects. The detailed technical basis for this adjustment factor is contained in section III.A.5 of this Final Technical Support Document."

    Note the compensation for ethanol in the fuel, how much ethanol is there in D2?

    Further reading shows that they know that they biased the fuel economy of the Hybrids up wards by using hot starts;

    "On average, hybrid fuel economy was 11% less than the composite EPA label values. The average on road fuel economy of the Toyota Prius vehicles was closer to their composite label values than those for the two Honda models. On average, the on road fuel economy of the 14 hybrids tested varied more than the conventional vehicles. This could be due to hybrids’ greater sensitivity to operating conditions which can either take full advantage of the hybrid technology or essentially nullify it. The fact that many vehicles started out testing with a hot start likely biased on road fuel economy up wards to some degree. Thus, the actual shortfalls found would have been greater to some degree if testing had begun with a cold start. "

    So if you factor in the admitted 18.3% penalty as well as the 9.5% downward correction for all the ethanol we burn while always driving uphill into the wind while overloaded on under inflated tires in a snow storm, then I guess VW might have been right with its 50+ Mpg estimate. Take the EPA of 41 Hwy and add 27.8% and you get 52.4 Mpg. The people who achieve the high Mpg here make sure their tires are overinflated, loads are light and conditions are good before making their mileage runs so they will likely achieve over 60 Mpg. The other thing of note is that the "trip length" for the EPA in their formula is 7.5 miles (we barely warm up by then) at an average speed of 19.6 mph on the highway, now what type of vehicle would that favour - anyone????


    So when the admitted error is figured in the real EPA mpg ratings are 38 city / 52.4 highway / 44 extra Urban mpgUS . Now these are mpg numbers to sing about .

    If you use these ratings you get a much more realistic idea of expected consumption ;

    Resources Canada ( 6.7 city / 5.2 extra urban / 4.6 highway ) a rating of ~35.1 city / 45 mixed / 51.1 highway mpgUS ,

    EU ratings ( 6 spd man 6.5 city / 5.1 extra urban / 4.3 highway ) a rating of ~36.2 city / 46.1 mixed / 54.7 highway mpgUS .

    Note , All mpgUS figures are converted from L/100km .
     
    #10 Dreamer, Dec 14, 2009
  11. Dreamer

    Dreamer New Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    the latest iterations of LD “clean diesels” are just as “clean” as the “cleanest” gasoline vehicles, consider the following emission profiles...


    Emission (grams/mile)

    NMHC...............................0.026.......... ...........0.064
    CO...................................0.2.......... ..............0.04
    CO @ 20 F........................0.2...................... ...0.6
    NOx.................................0.04.......... .............0.003
    Highway NOx.....................0.00...................... .0.002
    PM..................................0.00.......... .............0.00
    US06 HC+NOx...................0.023.................... ...0.069
    US06 CO..........................0.0................... .......0.1
    SC03 HC+NOx...................0.013.................... ...0.069
    SC03 CO..........................0.0................... ......0.1


    Which would be considered the “cleaner” emission profile overall?

    The emission profile on the left is the 2010 BMW 335d and the emission profile on the right is the 2010 Toyota Prius (based on CARB certs) BOTH WITH EVAPORATIVE EMISSIONS INCLUDED. I’ve detailed the methodology of quantifying evaporative emissions in the fuel distribution/handling cycle at Gas vs. Diesel Weighted-Equivalent Emissions (in grams/mile).

    Combining the FTP75/US06/SC03 test cycle emissions (for HC+NOx) yields the following emission profiles...


    Emission.....................2010 335d...............2010 Prius

    HC + NOx.......................0.034................... ..0.068
    CO................................0.07............ ...........0.08
    PM................................0.00............ ...........0.00


    So even if NMHC and NOx are considered equivalent with respect to “smog” formation (which I dispute), the “clean diesel” is just as “clean” from an overall regulated emissions profile, if not a little “cleaner”, than the “cleanest” gasoline engine vehicle currently on the market if evaporative emissions are taken into account.
     
    #11 Dreamer, Dec 14, 2009
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    Fuel Economy - source

    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3
    0 EPA MPG Composite User MPG (count) Model
    1 33 40.0 (27) 2009 Jetta TDI auto
    2 34 40.4 (16) 2009 Jetta TDI manual
    3 34 39.1 (2) 2010 Jetta SportsWagen
    4 34 ?? (??) 2010 Audi A3
    5 50 50.3 (64) 2010 Prius
    .
    Repeating the same experiment and expecting a different result is . . . .

    Starting at $30,000 each, the Audi A3 proves you can get less yet pay more than a $24-30,000 Prius. The Audi A3 combines lower fuel economy, 80% of a Prius based upon expected user reports; less passenger space, 95% of a Prius; less luggage space, 91% of a Prius.

    You do realize some Prius owners don't really care about relative emissions of cars sold today. I figure if the EPA allows it to be sold, it meets the minimum requirement. But since "clean diesel" seems to 'crank your tractor:'
    Folks in California are very sensitive to pollution for good reason. I remember driving in Riverside CA in 1972 and having my eyes suddenly tear up so I could barely stay on the on-ramp. I'd been through Marine bootcamp and it was worse than the tear gas hut. Fortunately I had a damp rag and could clear my eyes. If the CA folks give your car a low score, I tend to believe it ... they've had deaths from bad air in the past.

    "Dreamer," you are new here and seem to be interested in selling the Audi A3 to Prius owners. Perhaps you might start by doing some accurate market research about us. Key elements:

    • "tech-savvy, luxury consumers" - we're not likely to take anything on face value from any source
    • "brand switching" - we've been there, done that, and have the dirty oil rag
    • "Upper Rung" - we can afford to pay our bills because we tend to avoid poor choices
    I really think you need to examine your distorted assumptions about Prius owners and come back with a better plan. Or not . . . <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
    #12 bwilson4web, Dec 14, 2009
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  13. guinness_fr

    guinness_fr Junior Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    You forgot the above line in your final comparison, this is the highest difference between both profiles: 0.04 is over 13 times 0.003 !!!

    My previous vehicle was a diesel with a Particulate filter; I'm not sure having a particulate filter which increases NOx emissions then having a DeNOx which increases fuel consumption is the best way to go for cleaner vehicles in the future...
     
    #13 guinness_fr, Dec 14, 2009
  14. wxman

    wxman Active Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    The emissions post appears to be largely based on a post I made on tdiclub recently. The post was actually a criticism of the regulatory process, specifically the light-duty Tier 2/LEV II regs.

    The regulatory process by nature create regs "in a vacuum." They only look at a specific emission source and disregard other associated emission sources. EPA even acknowledges that it's "Green Vehicle Scores" are based ONLY on "tailpipe" emissions; they don't even include the evaporative emissions form the vehicle itself...

    About the Ratings | Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA (bolded emphasis added)

    I was just trying to demonstrate that other associated emissions need to be taken into account to evaluate the true environmental impact of a particular vehicle or line of vehicles. I was comparing the cleanest diesel vehicle currently available in the U.S. market (the BMW 335d, which is given a "green score" of 4 in California) with what is arguably the cleanest gasoline vehicle currently offered (the Prius, which is given a "green score" of 9).

    I also dispute the implication that NOx and HC are equivalent "ozone precursors." There have been a myriad of peer-reviewed studies of the "weekend ozone effect" which have concluded that reducing ambient NOx levels relatively more than ambient HC levels results in either no change or in some instances, increases ambient ozone levels in metropolitan areas. Metropolitan areas have are the main areas that have "smog" problems.
     
    #14 wxman, Dec 14, 2009
  15. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    The problem with the VW diesel engines.... even if it wants to be clean, it can't. VW will not allow more than 5% biodiesel before they will void their warranty.

    So what are all these talk about green diesel anyways?
     
    #15 dipper, Dec 14, 2009
  16. seftonm

    seftonm Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    How did you determine that? Not every new user who talks about different cars is interested in selling them. Perhaps they just want to talk about cars? I hoped you would have learned that by now :(
     
    #16 seftonm, Dec 14, 2009
  17. Dreamer

    Dreamer New Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    Two things ,


    First is , I gave all here the EPA documentation on how far off the current rating is on light duty diesels . The Resources Canada ( 6.7 city / 5.2 extra urban / 4.6 highway ) a rating of ~35.1 city / 45 mixed / 51.1 highway mpgUS , gives a clear real picure of consumption . The Resources Canada rating is based on a real world test .


    Second is , Where do you think that electricity you will charge your Prius comes from ???? I'll give you a hint COAL .........Tail pipe shifting isn't really so clean .
     
    #17 Dreamer, Dec 14, 2009
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    I answered with the EPA ratings of three diesels with identical Audi A3 mileage ratings and these three also have significant user mileage reports. The other three diesels are averaging ~40 MPG from the user reports even though the EPA lab results are identical in value but lower. This is why "~40 MPG" is pretty much what one should expect from the Audi A3 once some users start recording their mileage.

    Here is the table once again:
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3
    0 EPA MPG Composite User MPG (count) Model
    1 33 40.0 (27) 2009 Jetta TDI auto
    2 34 40.4 (16) 2009 Jetta TDI manual
    3 34 39.1 (2) 2010 Jetta SportsWagen
    4 34 ?? (??) 2010 Audi A3
    5 50 50.3 (64) 2010 Prius
    .
    The Jetta TDIs have an EPA composite of ~34 MPG but the owners are reporting ~40 MPG. Since the 2010 Audi A3 has an EPA composite of 34, it too will likely have the same 40 MPG average for user reports. Still, let's use your "18%" value ... better yet, round it up to "20%":

    34 * 20% = 6.8 MPG
    34 + 6.8 = 40.8 MPG *** Your correction factor applied ***

    Now I understand you don't care for electric powered vehicles and in particular, 'plug-in' hybrids because of:
    That is USA COAL and I like buying American.

    As for "clean coal" versus "clean diesel," I don't really care one way or the other. I live in the Tennessee River Valley and we have hydro, nuclear and coal. What we don't have is enough USA oil. But I notice a lot of wind power is coming online.

    BTW, did you notice that electric costs are running about $.80/gal. in equivalent mileage. Remember, I'm a "green" as in "greenback dollar at the pump." <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
    #18 bwilson4web, Dec 14, 2009
  19. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    The worst thing about bio fuel is it's primary source is either waste oil products of which there simply isn't enough ... or they're a waste of both energy AND food, as most (non-oil) grain variety come from substance that people eat. Then, there's the energy used to pump water to regions that don't have water, the energy used to creater/deliver the petro chemical fertilizer & pesticides to raise grains, then there's the energy used to ferment grain products into fuel, etc. So which is worse ... people starving because grain is wasted for transportation? ... or wasted energy used only to end up with a less combustable fuel ... or bio oil products of which there simply aren't enough (even if you could use more than 5% w/o warranty issues)?
    Other than that ... yea, it's great
    :rolleyes:
    .
     
    #19 hill, Dec 14, 2009
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Re: Audi A3 TDI beats all for Green Car of the Year award , two wins in a row for VW/Audi diesels ..

    When chatting with folks, knowing your audience is a good thing. That marketing report is a good place for "Dreamer" to learn about Prius folks and perhaps open up to why we like our ride too. <wink>

    Bob Wilson
     
    #20 bwilson4web, Dec 14, 2009
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