1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Bipartisan Support for Ending Virginia Hybrid Fees!

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by wjtracy, Oct 18, 2013.

  1. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,313
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    :) Can you see the smile on my face? Last couple days my heart has been warmed by several northern Virginia republicans joining the chorus with the northern Virginia democrats leading the charge to repeal the newly enacted VA hybrid fees. I really like this recent Patch article:

    Del. Rust Plans Fight to Repeal Hybrid Car Tax - Government - Herndon, VA Patch
    I would further add that the Highlander Hybrid owner is probably paying up to 18% car taxes in Virginia (assuming 10-yr ownership), for a total of about $7100 car tax, and this is probably about $5000 more car tax than the Corolla is paying. VA's car tax system is progressive with car cost and uses actual blue book values. Whereas Toyota hybrids depreciate so slowly, Toyota hybrid owners are assured the highest car tax theoretically possible in our system.

    To suggest Virginia's already over-taxed hybrid drivers deserve a further tax penalty ($640 over 10 years) is just not fair. That would raise total 10-yr car tax on a Highlander Hybrid to 20% in some NoVA towns.

    Legislators are starting to ask: when we repeal the hybrid fees, should those that have already paid the hybrid fee already get their money back? That's a nice question, but we are not there yet. If you live in Virginia you might want to send a note to your delegate and state senator asking for relief from this crazy hybrid fee.

    I would actually like to reform our whole VA car tax system, make it more like Maine or Arizona who also levy yearly property taxes on cars, but in a way that does not create such a large tax dis-incentive for hybrids.
     
  2. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    2,938
    2,288
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    IMO, a "fair tax" with proper incentives, should be made up of 3 components:
    1. property portion: based on market value of the car
    2. fuel portion: inversely proportional to mpg (low mpg pays more)
    3. weight portion: heavier pays more

    How the 3 components get proportioned, in an ideal law would be so that it is about revenue neutral.
    Heavier vehicles should pay more because they do more road damage.
    Higher mpg cars should pay less as an incentive to be efficient, pollute less, etc.
    PHEVs might be a bit of a challenge to figure out a good EV ratio...and EVs should pay even less for this portion at least initially. It could be argued that cars that use no gas, thus pay no gas taxes could have this portion increased some years down the road.
    And the property portion allows the fairness angle of poorer people with cheaper cars pay less.

    Dealers should have to post the details of the tax on each car with the EPA mileage info.

    Mike
     
    wjtracy likes this.
  3. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,313
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I especially agree on this last point. Part of the reason car taxes are high in Virginia is because they are almost impossible to calculate. Many drivers just pay the annual tax without realizing what it adds up to. If you did know the total tax, like me with a special spreadsheet, there are possible implications on choice of vehicle.

    However, there is a complication that some of these are local town tax rates. No big deal, so you show the calc for a typical locality and have an on-line calculator for people to make it specific to their town.
     
  4. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,674
    6,493
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    There's ALWAYS a smile on my face when (if) taxes get repealed!
    :)

    I wish it could happen more often!
    :(
     
    wjtracy likes this.
  5. VicVinegar

    VicVinegar Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    261
    47
    0
    Location:
    Northern Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    It is why I kept my old car so long. Buying a new, moderately priced car bumped my tax by a few hundred bucks. I preferred to just spend it on repairs instead of taxes.

    I had a column on my car shopping spreadsheet for my county and town tax. It also was one more reason I didn't get a loaded one.

    And some people just don't pay the tax. Enforcement seems to be nonexistent even here in Loudoun where there are still decals. A bunch of cars in my neighborhood park outside every night with no sticker and have done so for a year or more. Some that are garaged will never be seen. One guy has a $50k Audi, a $40k truck, and just bought a $30k Fusion. No stickers on any of them.

    Another guy that moved had a Mercedes S63 AMG. No tax sticker ever.

    Sure they might pay it, but why wouldn't you slap the sticker on to avoid a ticket in the future?
     
    wjtracy likes this.
  6. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,313
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    ^^^...we don't have the stickers in Fx county. Definitely we have to be conservative on car purchases if we want to manage our taxes.
     
  7. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    3,642
    1,628
    0
    Location:
    Sanford, NC
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    Limited
    Another possible component on which to base tax is the number of miles you drive, not just the MPG. Some states are moving towards paying more for their roads with a mileage charge and lowering the tax per gallon. See green Oregon.

    Your government has to maintain the roads otherwise your cost to maintain your car's tires and suspension and your mileage per gallon go up due to the lower quality of the roads and the lower speed you must drive. Not to mention quality of ride. And safety. Even ignoring potholes, groves get worn into roads over time in the tire tracks and collect water. I've seen far to many very serious accidents because of ill maintained roads and stupid drivers with bald tires and NASCAR mentalities driving in the rain on roads with grooves. So we have to maintain. And build new roads to support new housing or industrial developments.

    As the price of oil goes up and general inflation too and as MPG goes up, less and less gas tax dollars are going into the road fund and general tax revenues have been subsidizing the road fund in increasing amounts in all states. As the required fleet MPG from the auto manufacturers goes to 55MPG in the not so distant future, where will the road fund dollars come from is the dilemma politicians face. Toll roads? I had my wife in the hospital a few weeks ago and paid $30 in tolls to drive twice a day on a 12 mile stretch of toll road. Imagine commuting costs for a year. But it was the only way to get the road built because the gas tax dollars weren't there and would decrease over time as MPG increases.

    Me driving a Prius and you driving a CRV put the same wear on the road surface but I pay less gas tax because I use less. Another situation, I have twice the miles on my Prius as my wife does on her Avalon yet we have paid about the same gas tax $. But I've worn out the road more.

    You can't have something for nothing.

    So I'm all for some rational tax scheme that includes miles driven as a major component. That will accommodate all forms of fuel and put the burden on those who use the roads more equally.

    Interesting article in last week's Economist on this subject.
     
  8. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,313
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Virginia has a regional divide with the outcome that the northern part of the state and Norfolk areas, with so many gov't jobs, is asked to pay more taxes than the outlying areas. So this prevents us from adopting a uniform state-wide policy. If it was miles driven formula, we would want to say certain regions must pay more per mile.
     
  9. vskid3

    vskid3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    773
    228
    0
    Location:
    Texas
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    How do you figure that? It makes sense to me that a lighter vehicle, likely with LRR tires and gentler acceleration and braking, would wear the road less than a heavier vehicle. It might not be a huge difference like 50% less wear, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the wear per mile is the same between two vehicles of different weights.
     
  10. shiranpuri

    shiranpuri Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    65
    19
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    I'd imagine differences in consumer-class weight and [most] tires have a miniscule effect on road wear. (Obviously not counting chains & what not on wheels). For weight to make a difference, you probably need to get up towards the 18-wheeler class. Weather's probably a bigger factor than weight, and that damage can't be attributed to any one vehicle category.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,739
    11,327
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The three hundred pounds difference probably would mean little to amount of road wear. Same with the LRR tires and driving style. Those also can't be considered for a road use tax basis, because they aren't fixed to the vehicle. Prius owners have switched to non-LRR tires, and CRV ones can switch to them. Car type isn't a guaranty of driving behavior.