1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Bob Lutz of GM claims that CAFE change could add $5K to $6K to price of new car

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by cwerdna, Apr 5, 2007.

Page 1 of 2
  1. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...340/1148/AUTO01

    " NEW YORK -- General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said Wednesday that a Bush administration proposal to sharply increase fuel economy mandates could add between $5,000 and $6,000 to the price of a new car
    ...
    A better way to reduce oil dependence is to dramatically boost the availability of ethanol-based fuels, like E85, Lutz said, echoing other automakers. There are about 1,100 E85 pumps out of 170,000 nationwide. Increasing ethanol production and availability also is a solution that puts more of the burden on fuel providers..."

    I'm sure he's pushing E85 because that's the cheap easy way to REALLY boost their CAFE #s because of the government E85 loophole counting scam/incentive. :rolleyes:
     
    #1 cwerdna, Apr 5, 2007
  2. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Hmmm.

    Hybrids already meet CAFE.

    Even with the so-called "hybrid premium" that still puts hybrids ahead, doesn't it?
     
    #2 Godiva, Apr 5, 2007
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    12,755
    5,245
    57
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Apr 5 2007, 03:24 AM) [snapback]418108[/snapback]</div>
    Study their "full" hybrid design. Those clutches, something the competition doesn't offer, should be enable the system to squeeze out even greater power & efficiency. However, that benefit adds to the vehicle cost... hence the price complaint. GM's option costs more than Toyota's or Ford's.

    What are they going to do? The plans have been to offer their "assist" hybrid design for cars and reserve the "full" for only the larger vehicles that could more easily justify the extra expense.

    The E85 diversion won't save them from acknowledging that too much consumption of any kind is bad, whether the source is oil or renewable. The preference for cars is growing as well. There are now in a bit of a pickle.
     
    #3 john1701a, Apr 5, 2007
  4. Tempus

    Tempus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2004
    1,690
    6
    0
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    I wonder

    If Detroit has made predictions every time a safety or emissions technology was mandated, what would we get if we added them up?

    I bet that if we added up their predictions for the "Incremental Cost" of Seat Belts, Air Bags, 5MPH Bumpers, Catalytic Converters, etc etc then subtracted the total from the cost of a current Compact Car, that the cars would be FREE by now if it weren't for those damned regulations.
     
    #4 Tempus, Apr 5, 2007
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,889
    8,188
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Apr 5 2007, 04:05 AM) [snapback]418105[/snapback]</div>

    Wahhh :lol:
     
    #5 hill, Apr 5, 2007
  6. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    9,810
    465
    0
    Location:
    MD
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    in what? parts are mass produced cheaply.

    you can't tell me that they'll spend $5-6k PER CAR on R&D to come up with better FE.
     
    #6 galaxee, Apr 5, 2007
  7. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ Apr 5 2007, 09:08 AM) [snapback]418219[/snapback]</div>
    This is spot-on!!!

    Every time the automakers don't want to do something, they claim it will make cars so much more expensive.

    Well, sure, if they insist on adding 100 HP to the power of an already over-powered gas guzzler, it will cost more to make it efficient as well. Here's what I wonder: How much is added to the price of an SUV by the cost of the advertising that's used to convince people that they need an over-powered 4WD gas-guzzler for grocery shopping?
     
    #7 daniel, Apr 5, 2007
  8. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    3,945
    304
    0
    We used to HAVE CAFE standards. The automakers had them rescinded. If they can prove they credited the $5000 back to the purchasers then perhaps they can add it to the cost now. No rebate...just kept the money for the CEO? then now the CEO can reduce his package to make up for the 'extra cost'. HA! Works both ways!
     
    #8 MarinJohn, Apr 5, 2007
  9. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    I say let them add $5,000 to $6,000 to the price of every car. (Justified or not.)

    It will just make hybrids that much more attractive and competitive.

    (And it will make people wonder why the Japanese aren't charging $5,000-$6,000 more for their regular cars but are still meeting CAFE.)
     
    #9 Godiva, Apr 5, 2007
  10. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,934
    16,159
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    You know.. An Escalade cost Cdn$60k before. This brand new one is $90k. So apparently $5k is too much to increase fuel economy but a $30k price hike is oh so totally justifiable on an Escalade. I almost died when I saw the price tag. Talk about sticker shock.


    Oh.. and in case you didn't notice, during the rounds of incentives and crap back in 2002, they've silently raised the price of each vehicle by roughly the same figure as the incentive which meant you were paying the same as the year before without the incentives. (I remember checking the Buicks which had a $1,000 price difference from 2001 to 2002).

    What makes it even funnier is that even after they've tricked people into thinking they were getting $1,000 off (or whatever the incentive may be), GM was still losing money. LOL.
     
    #10 Tideland Prius, Apr 5, 2007
  11. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Apr 5 2007, 12:51 PM) [snapback]418375[/snapback]</div>
    That's not true. The CAFE standards still exist. Read http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm for an overview.

    If they DIDN'T exist, oh boy, we'd have even worse guzzlers than we have now.
     
    #11 cwerdna, Apr 6, 2007
  12. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2004
    3,945
    304
    0
    cwerdna I stand corrected. I guess as more and more vehicles fall into the non-cafe standard 'truck' category it just seems like it's gone.
     
    #12 MarinJohn, Apr 6, 2007
  13. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Apr 6 2007, 09:41 AM) [snapback]418819[/snapback]</div>
    Which "truck" category are you talking about? The 3 fleets are domestic passenger cars, import passenger cars, and light trucks. All of them have to meet a CAFE standard, but the light truck standard is much lower. Light trucks includes SUVs, minivans, some vans and pickups.

    However, vehicles that look like cars are classified as "light trucks" presumably to provide an artificial boost to a company's light truck CAFE #. Examples include Chevy HHR (based on Chevy Cobalt, a subcompact car) and Chrysler PT Cruiser.

    However, some vehicles are (currently) EXEMPT from fuel economy testing and counting against light truck CAFE because they're of having GVWR >8500 lbs. Examples include the Hummer H1 and H2, Ford Expedition EL, and others listed at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/which_tested.shtml. That's a travesty but is being remedied by a bill that passed within the past eyar.
     
    #13 cwerdna, Apr 6, 2007
  14. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    1,748
    1
    0
    Location:
    New Brunswick, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Apr 6 2007, 02:38 PM) [snapback]418932[/snapback]</div>
    Include the Rav4 and highlander (based on camry). Fair is fair.
     
    #14 Jonnycat26, Apr 6, 2007
  15. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2005
    10,339
    14
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Apr 6 2007, 02:01 AM) [snapback]418666[/snapback]</div>

    They're just so weak and watered down they're pretty useless as far as progress.
     
    #15 Godiva, Apr 6, 2007
  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,934
    16,159
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Apr 6 2007, 12:32 PM) [snapback]418962[/snapback]</div>
    Highlander is, not RAV4.

    Yeah but the PT Cruiser and HHR are not SUVs or Light Trucks lol. They look like normal hatchbacks to me.

    THe same goes for the Nitro and Caliber.
     
    #16 Tideland Prius, Apr 7, 2007
  17. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    9,810
    465
    0
    Location:
    MD
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    DH's simple answer: don't pay the extra money for a GM in the first place. :lol:
     
    #17 galaxee, Apr 7, 2007
  18. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2004
    1,748
    1
    0
    Location:
    New Brunswick, NJ
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Apr 7 2007, 01:31 AM) [snapback]419233[/snapback]</div>
    Rav4 is not based on the camry, but it is classified as a light truck.
     
    #18 Jonnycat26, Apr 7, 2007
  19. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    12,544
    2,123
    1
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Apr 6 2007, 10:47 PM) [snapback]419243[/snapback]</div>
    Well, yeah, but it looks like an SUV. SUVs, minivans, pickups and some vans are classified as light trucks. Chrysler PT Cruisers, Subaru Outback sedans and wagons DON'T look like SUVs, yet they're classified as light trucks.
     
    #19 cwerdna, Apr 7, 2007
  20. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    44,934
    16,159
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Apr 7 2007, 12:44 AM) [snapback]419288[/snapback]</div>
    what he said.

    In that case, you might as well classify the SX-4 as an SUV cause it's high up and has AWD :huh:

    Or using the American logic, the Scion xB
     
    #20 Tideland Prius, Apr 7, 2007
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 2